@Xyph, is resists being less effective than health in S3 bad design?

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Henry Plainview

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
So please, if there's a particular resistance based tank that feels weak, let us know.
SHYVANA

I always enjoy and appreciate your posts Xypherous, even if I don't agree with them. One thing I would point out is that, in my opinion, the health items available are much less interesting than the armor choices. As a tank/bruiser, if I want to start stacking a lot of armor there's Atma's, Frozen Heart, Randuin's, Iceborn Gauntlet, Aegis, Sunfire Cape, and Thornmail. For health, I just have Warmog's and Frozen Mallet. I know there's the kindlegem items if you're a more supporty tank, but those don't give very much health.


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Hellioning

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Wouldn't it make more sense for resistances to be stronger? Simply because they only apply to half of the damage you're taking, less if there's an olaf/irelia/cho'gath/darius on the other team. Shouldn't they be stronger against that particular type of damage?

as is, the current response to 'taking too much damage' is 'buy health' no matter what kind of damage it is.


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Siky

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Price View Post
Health being better is good and all, but it would be more fun if armour were more... relevant. Making it cheaper would probably work, if nothing else.
Unbuffing Penetration would do a little to solve it because as is, it was a huge change due to both Penetration getting better and Armor getting both nerfed and costing more. Both changes were good, but together they became redundant. Only one honestly needed to happen.


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Jesus the Friend

Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post


I typically don't comment on Vladimir at all, are you confusing me with someone else? I don't actually have a lot of ton of balance insight into Vlad - despite him being my forum avatar.
No, it was specifically you.

I created a thread that went on for over 10 pages(ish?) stating that you WOULD need to nerf vlad because his pool was too powerful. You came in defense of Shurelia, who stated vlad was "fine" back when Vlad was new, which he wasn't.

You aggressively rejected my suggestions and rebuffed anyone who concurred with my assessment. I have no hard feelings, I just felt like playfully rubbing it in now that I have your attention since his pool was nerfed repeatedly.
VICTORY IS MINE! /Dramatic win pose

If I recall, you actually pushed for his pool to be buffed... /cough
gg you guys do good work though.


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Fire Lord Iroh

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Not actually certain it's as big of a problem as the current environment thinks it is. Warmog's isn't really efficient in terms of gaining raw health per gold if you do the math on it. Buying any combination of ruby crystal items, for example, will net you more health than gold than buying Warmog's.

At the moment, it looks like it's more an environmental thing than an actual cost to gold effectiveness ratio.

Although, there's a couple of things tuned around old armor values that we'll probably need to look at in the future:

1. The tower damage / armor penetration formulae were based off old health / armor values. We'll probably have to revisit that soonish so that towers have more damage and less armor penetration.

2. We'll have to do a pass on character that used to scale primarily off health because their tuning is probably off - Probably not a huge surprise that Shen or Olaf are pretty decent now.



I typically don't comment on Vladimir at all, are you confusing me with someone else? I don't actually have a lot of ton of balance insight into Vlad - despite him being my forum avatar.
There is actually something wrong with the nature of your argument supporting Warmogs. The fact of the matter is although other items that stem from Ruby Crystal may be more effective sources of health, Warmogs is incredibly slot efficient and actually allows for a much safer laning phase when rushed due to the natural sustain it presents. This allows characters like Irelia and Olaf to start scaling into late game a lot faster than they should.

Olaf scales well with health for obvious synergies health has with his W and R, but I mention Irelia because she already has a lot of damage in her kit. The truth is, she doesn't really need to build damage to become an effective Bruiser. The most common thing to do with her in Korea is to rush Warmogs then pick up Zerker's followed by Zephyr. Do you really think that late game heroes getting to late game faster isn't a problem? This isn't meant to be offensive to you in any way, but if you do not feel that the aforementioned is not an issue I would like to see your explanation as to why.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

01-23-2013
3 of 27 Riot Posts

Quote:
I always enjoy and appreciate your posts Xypherous, even if I don't agree with them. One thing I would point out is that, in my opinion, the health items available are much less interesting than the armor choices. As a tank/bruiser, if I want to start stacking a lot of armor there's Atma's, Frozen Heart, Randuin's, Iceborn Gauntlet, Aegis, Sunfire Cape, and Thornmail. For health, I just have Warmog's and Frozen Mallet. I know there's the kindlegem items if you're a more supporty tank, but those don't give very much health.
While Warmog's may be the defining health item - Bulwark / Randuin / Locket of the Iron Solari / Sunfire Cape all over above 400 health in a single slot. Roughly half the armor items are as much health items as armor items at their core. Randuin's is the only item in there that provides more than 50+ armor in a single slot - so most of those are items are actually core health items.

Quote:
SHYVANA
Agreed. AS nerfs hit her pretty hard and the jungle changes were a double whammy onto her.

Quote:
Wouldn't it make more sense for resistances to be stronger? Simply because they only apply to half of the damage you're taking, less if there's an olaf/irelia/cho'gath/darius on the other team. Shouldn't they be stronger against that particular type of damage?
The strength of resistance is hidden in a lot of myriad ways. While they only apply to "half" the damage you're taking, that's not the whole picture. What resistances actually do is magnify the effect of your other self-healing, resistance and regeneration effects, while also mitigating the drain effects and % health effects of your opponents.

I agree that on the surface, it feels like resistances should feel stronger against a single type of damage but the power of the combined effect of resistances with other effects means that resistances can't be as strong innately on the 1:1 comparison.


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Zerglinator

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I typically don't comment on Vladimir at all, are you confusing me with someone else? I don't actually have a lot of ton of balance insight into Vlad - despite him being my forum avatar.
But Vlad's all about Health! You should totally know everything about him!


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Linaeus

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Plainview View Post
SHYVANA

I always enjoy and appreciate your posts Xypherous, even if I don't agree with them. One thing I would point out is that, in my opinion, the health items available are much less interesting than the armor choices. As a tank/bruiser, if I want to start stacking a lot of armor there's Atma's, Frozen Heart, Randuin's, Iceborn Gauntlet, Aegis, Sunfire Cape, and Thornmail. For health, I just have Warmog's and Frozen Mallet. I know there's the kindlegem items if you're a more supporty tank, but those don't give very much health.
Isn't that supposed to be the trade off though? Heath helps surviving through physical, magical, and true damage, while armor and MR mitigate only one. Because armor and MR only provide one form of resistance, you get compensation in the form of utility.


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Kelly Price

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Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siky View Post
Unbuffing Penetration would do a little to solve it because as is, it was a huge change due to both Penetration getting better and Armor getting both nerfed and costing more. Both changes were good, but together they became redundant. Only one honestly needed to happen.
Agreed. I like the penetration change... it's more intuitive. Simply making armour/MR cheaper would be enough to see it in use again - some more options for armour and MR would be useful as well.


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4thEDITION

Senior Member

01-23-2013

What's going to be done about magic resistance? Especially with tanky characters it's as if there's nothing to buy for magic resistance other than bulwark and negaton cloaks while stacking health/armor. While there are a lot of great armor items for tanks with debuffs and such, it doesn't feel the same way with items with MR. Or if they do, they either cost too much more do not give enough MR to justify its purchase.


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