@Xyph, is resists being less effective than health in S3 bad design?

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Merana

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Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
It's just something we typically don't support in large quantities either way without caveats like the range of DFG or the conditional 'you must poke at them for a while' in Liandry's case. A scenario where unrestricted burst damage is allowed to do its thing isn't actually all that great - which is why many Burst mages have secondary utility fall back patterns.
With the unintended (?) side effect of buffing AD casters even more because if you can't kill them with burst due to their health pool, you are much better off with AD than AP because every auto has a 1:1 ratio.


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Doktor Pat

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Yo xyph. Just wanted to say I love you. <3


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khemetjp

Junior Member

01-23-2013

I something that has been ignored here is how for every role, and on every character, a
majority of league players are using armor seals and some form of magic resist glyph.

These runes are more skewing the cost effectiveness of health by making every character
begin with higher resistances. Even with resistance items nerfed the runes are just as
effective making health a more attractive option early due to every character having higher resistances from the start.


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Sessamo

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Xyph, do you know why Liandry's was given %current rather than %max? Were you guys just turned off from it after Blackfire Torch?


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Doktor Pat

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Why is ap yi being destroyed? Barely viable now O.o


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

01-23-2013
13 of 27 Riot Posts

Quote:
Xyph, do you know why Liandry's was given %current rather than %max? Were you guys just turned off from it after Blackfire Torch?
I chose % current because its a marginally safer effect that lets us be a little more aggressive with the numbers on the item. It tends to also create a better playstyle dynamic because it's not entirely self-contained - you need % current health plus something else in order to murder someone - whereas % max health only needs more of itself, for example.

Quote:
I something that has been ignored here is how for every role, and on every character, a
majority of league players are using armor seals and some form of magic resist glyph.

These runes are more skewing the cost effectiveness of health by making every character
begin with higher resistances. Even with resistance items nerfed the runes are just as
effective making health a more attractive option early due to every character having higher resistances from the start.
Yes, this is true - however, runes are something we're much much more careful about touching because players have significant investment into their rune sets as is. If we have to do rune adjustments we will - but it's something that we want to traditionally be very cautious about as there's a lot more potential for disruption here than anywhere else.


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Luvatar

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Potentially - and this is going to be pretty controversial - but burst damage isn't really designed to have counterplay either because the ideal scenario for a burst mage is death without the possibility of reaction.

It's just something we typically don't support in large quantities either way without caveats like the range of DFG or the conditional 'you must poke at them for a while' in Liandry's case. A scenario where unrestricted burst damage is allowed to do its thing isn't actually all that great - which is why many Burst mages have secondary utility fall back patterns.
Burst damage has a lot of counterplay. There's GA, Zhonyas, QSS (For most, it stops the combo), and Bveil, on top of MRes and Health.

But this isn't the issue at hand and we're getting sidetracked. The issue is that most AP casters have to face the addition of Health as a common stat without the additions of tools to deal with health. Before Tanks/bruisers would stack Armor/Mres, both sides dealing with their respective resistance on a 1:1 basis. Now tank/brusiers stack Health/Mres. AD's still deal with their resistance on a 1:1 basis, but mages now have 2 stats stacked against them.


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DT777

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Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post

Theoretically, this is why Thornmail still exists. Theoretically.
Thornmail was hardly ever grabbed in s2 because it was slot inefficient. Now it's cost and slot inefficient. FH and Randuin's are better at negating drain tanks due to the attack speed slow.

Now, if it cost 2k and had a 1.4k upgrade that added 50 armor and grievous wounds to people who dealt physical damage, while applying damage return against physical damage, then it'd start looking real good. Maybe make the upgrade 1.6k cost.


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Arixa

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Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post

Theoretically, this is why Thornmail still exists. Theoretically.
Ugg lifesteal is not an interesting mechanic to begin with. It's bad enough having abysmal support or tank dps but then you get to learn that your opponent heals for more by autoattacking than you can deal.

Then you put in a counter that goes the complete other way. This thing makes the carry just hate existing because either they had a ton of lifesteal just to break even against the passive, or they didn't and now they murder themselves for even trying to hurt you.

I don't think requiring a counter item is all that great a space to be in, but if we have to put up with that at least could you tack a grievous wounds aura onto some tank item? Thornmail has too many other issues.


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Xela Syab

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
It's actually multiplicatively reducing. The attack speed slows that you get lower their total attack speed by a percentage. Which means that a combination of Randuin's + Frozen heart will lower opposing carry DPS by 40% if you're being attacked.
Xyph look at the argument though, my tank reduces their dps by 40% (if randuins even procs or hits them with active) with 6.5k gear they reduce my armor by 60% minimum with >6k of items. Unless I cc them first and my carry gets them I really don't have any way of surviving their attacks. Health really becomes the only option since carries can't mitigate 60% of champions health with 2 items, and that's one of the reasons why Nunu, Malphite, Shen, and Olaf are seen so much over Alistar, Rammus, Galio. Its a numbers game, and forces a paper rock scissors problem where I can actually be punished for buying resistance over raw health.