Nidalee Balance Issue

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Ternce

Senior Member

01-29-2013

I'd like to take a minute to complain about a particular spell that I find to be particularly overwhelming since the penetration changes.

Nidalee's Bushwhack is insanely good right now, and should be toned down to be brought in line with other abilities. The damage is fine, however, the fact that this ability is spammable, with no limit to the amount of traps placed, and has no delay upon cast pretty much guarantees you will hit many of them while laning against Nidalee, or playing in a game with an enemy Nidalee.

The main issue comes into play with the debuffs that happen when you run over one of these traps. At rank 5, 40% Armor and Magic Resist is far too good for one ability. Not only that, but the debuff lasts for 12 seconds, which is not reduced by tenacity. This is 3 times longer than any other armor or magic penetration shred in the game, and needs to be toned down at the very least in duration, if not also in the % reductions to account for new armor and magic penetration calculations in Season 3.

Furthermore, it grants vision for 12 seconds, which is 25% longer than any other non-ultimate ability that grants vision, and is 4 times longer than most abilities that grant vision. The only other ability that grants vision that lasts longer is Twisted Fate's Destiny.

I think that this ability should be changed to be brought down to comparable abilities.

Proposed change:

Bushwack now reveals targets for 9 seconds, and reduces their armor and magic resistance for 4 seconds. Up to 3 Bushwack traps may be placed at once (down from infinite). Traps last for 3 minutes.

Reasoning: All other armor shreds in the game only last for 4 seconds, and aren't as powerful as a 40% armor and magic resist shred. All other trap abilities are restricted to either an ammo system, or a limitation of how many can be placed at once.


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Wrath of Sekhmet

Senior Member

01-29-2013

There's no nerf like overnerf. And to top it all off, you didn't even suggest reducing the mana cost to be more in line with the effectiveness. All your proposal would do is kill Nidalee as a support.


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Jamaree

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Senior Member

01-29-2013

But most other armor shreds are instant and aren't dodgable.


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RagingBulk

Senior Member

01-29-2013

The vision lasts way too long, I can agree with that for sure. Tone it down to 8 seconds below and were good. The % resistance reduction is debatable. Most times it's avoidable, when it's not just be prepared to dodge a spear.


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Ternce

Senior Member

01-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrath of Sekhmet View Post
There's no nerf like overnerf. And to top it all off, you didn't even suggest reducing the mana cost to be more in line with the effectiveness. All your proposal would do is kill Nidalee as a support.
Please explain how it would kill Nidalee as a support. What other support has an armor or magic resist debuff this strong? The closest is Taric, who gives a flat 30 Armor Shred, and has to put himself in harm's way to do so. It also lasts 4 seconds, which is par for Armor and Magic Resist shreds. Other than that, no support character even has armor shredding, or magic resist shredding capabilities.

Nobody plays Nidalee as a support, she is most commonly a mid or a top. She doesn't need compensated for losing anything on this ability, as the duration is well over the top, and is leagues better than any comparable ability. Team fights and skirmishes barely even last 30 seconds anymore, and 1 person stepping on 1 trap is enough to completely sway an entire teamfight, and negate a couple thousand gold worth of stats for the entire duration of a teamfight.

Saying that "Well the traps are avoidable" is a null point. You're going to step on those traps. You're going to go into a bush and hit one, you're going to hit one running away. You will get tunnel vision, and hit a trap. It's going to happen. Skilled Nidalee's can even just throw a trap at you, and have it go off, as there isn't really a "set up" duration for it, like Cait's. 12 seconds is a huge window to capitalize on the armor/magic resist debuff.


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Ternce

Senior Member

01-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingBulk View Post
Most times it's avoidable, when it's not just be prepared to dodge a spear.
Spears are actually the least of the worries here. The fact that the ability is spammable, with no limit to how many can be placed means that you can walk into any bush at any time within a very wide radius of the champion's mobility (I'm not suggesting touching the champion's mobility, as it's vital to her playstyle to be able to escape any situation regardless of the scenario), and hit one of these traps.

Getting pounded on by a Miss Fortune or a Talon who has Last Whisper or Black Cleaver after you hit one of these traps is pretty much certain death after the new penetration changes. More aggressive opponents will hunt you down the instant they see you, when they know what these traps do.


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PaulTheMerc

Senior Member

01-29-2013

kayle also has a nasty shred. the thing here is, traps are avoidable. spears drain mana. they were designed that if you step into one, nid can throw a spear at you, and if it lands, she profits. the duration is a little longer then needed for that. The shred isn't a problem. They are dodgable. They are highli visible.


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Vepenar

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Senior Member

01-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ternce View Post
I'd like to take a minute to complain about a particular spell that I find to be particularly overwhelming since the penetration changes.

Nidalee's Bushwhack is insanely good right now, and should be toned down to be brought in line with other abilities. The damage is fine, however, the fact that this ability is spammable, with no limit to the amount of traps placed, and has no delay upon cast pretty much guarantees you will hit many of them while laning against Nidalee, or playing in a game with an enemy Nidalee.

The main issue comes into play with the debuffs that happen when you run over one of these traps. At rank 5, 40% Armor and Magic Resist is far too good for one ability. Not only that, but the debuff lasts for 12 seconds, which is not reduced by tenacity. This is 3 times longer than any other armor or magic penetration shred in the game, and needs to be toned down at the very least in duration, if not also in the % reductions to account for new armor and magic penetration calculations in Season 3.

Furthermore, it grants vision for 12 seconds, which is 25% longer than any other non-ultimate ability that grants vision, and is 4 times longer than most abilities that grant vision. The only other ability that grants vision that lasts longer is Twisted Fate's Destiny.

I think that this ability should be changed to be brought down to comparable abilities.

Proposed change:

Bushwack now reveals targets for 9 seconds, and reduces their armor and magic resistance for 4 seconds. Up to 3 Bushwack traps may be placed at once (down from infinite). Traps last for 3 minutes.

Reasoning: All other armor shreds in the game only last for 4 seconds, and aren't as powerful as a 40% armor and magic resist shred. All other trap abilities are restricted to either an ammo system, or a limitation of how many can be placed at once.
The reason she has unlimited bushwacks is because bushwacks can be triggered by minions, meaning they are generally only useful for establishing bush control.


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Wrath of Sekhmet

Senior Member

01-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ternce View Post
Please explain how it would kill Nidalee as a support. What other support has an armor or magic resist debuff this strong? The closest is Taric, who gives a flat 30 Armor Shred, and has to put himself in harm's way to do so. It also lasts 4 seconds, which is par for Armor and Magic Resist shreds. Other than that, no support character even has armor shredding, or magic resist shredding capabilities.

Nobody plays Nidalee as a support, she is most commonly a mid or a top. She doesn't need compensated for losing anything on this ability, as the duration is well over the top, and is leagues better than any comparable ability. Team fights and skirmishes barely even last 30 seconds anymore, and 1 person stepping on 1 trap is enough to completely sway an entire teamfight, and negate a couple thousand gold worth of stats for the entire duration of a teamfight.

Saying that "Well the traps are avoidable" is a null point. You're going to step on those traps. You're going to go into a bush and hit one, you're going to hit one running away. You will get tunnel vision, and hit a trap. It's going to happen. Skilled Nidalee's can even just throw a trap at you, and have it go off, as there isn't really a "set up" duration for it, like Cait's. 12 seconds is a huge window to capitalize on the armor/magic resist debuff.
Plenty of people play her as a support (including me sometimes). And asking what other support has such a debuff is irrelevant; most supports have hard cc. They aren't all carbon copies of each other. They have hard cc, Nidalee has strong zoning and map awareness with a debuff. And by the way, there is a setup time on them (you try sticking them right under an enemy and see what happens). The duration could be toned down a little, but cutting it by 75% and limiting her to three at a time (which makes no difference in team fights, by the way) is way too much.


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Llethander

Senior Member

01-30-2013

The combination of minions being able to trigger the traps and lack of CC makes the debuff completely understandable. LoL is all about the teamfights and bushwack is almost completely useless when it comes to those. Keep in mind, as well, each trap costs a good amount of mana and they only last 3 minutes so I really can't agree with your argument.