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Shyvana's State in Season 3

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Mogs01gt

Senior Member

01-19-2013

Giver her ap scaling abilities that all do magic dmg and that could be an easy quick fix.


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Renanthera

Recruiter

01-19-2013

Quote:
Mogs01gt:
Giver her ap scaling abilities that all do magic dmg and that could be an easy quick fix.


... Strangely enough, I never thought of that. Then again, it doesn't feel to fit her theme. I know she's part dragon, but that's the thing. She's only partly magical, so thematically it makes sense for her to do damage from both spectrums.

Although agreed that it would make her damage skyrocket, that's not the problem.
It's more so just her presence in a game isn't scary enough.
Her ganks don't have any remarkable CC (even accompanied with exhaust) and her damage is partly the reason as well, but I do think it's more so the fault of itemization.


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KitStylus

Senior Member

01-19-2013

Shyvana needs some love, as well as the S3 Jungle


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copperpoint

Senior Member

01-19-2013

Right now she needs a lot of things.

1- a better scaling design. Half of her kit scales of AP. Even if you push it its wasted a lot on her E and the ulti ... you dont use it for the initial dmg, but for what you get afterwards. So both rather useless to push. So even if we actually buy AP items its useless = Half her kit cant be pushed.
2- Better item designs specially for her, or a change in her design to make better use of the existing items. There is NO item, that increases her Attack dmg and at the same time gives magic pen, as that is the bigger part of her dmg. (especially with wits end + sunfire)
Basically you have to buy items for what other champs can do for free with their cit. (Frozen mallet for a basic cc effect, attack speed, sustain ...)
3- Her stats - Her dmg as well as her def stats are too low for what she is unable to do.
Compare it to a regualr bruiser like Jax: def, jump, stun and a great passive. Kinda tanky, not really burst dmg but still high dmg.
Compare to an assasin type: Great gapcloser, escapes, cc. Very high 1 target burst dmg, usually rather squishy though.
4- her kit.There is a lot of space to improve her and male her more dangerous again without making her a copy of any other bruiser. Her design was always high mobility, tankyness and high aoe dmg, she is somewhat like an ADC right now, afk farming until she has her items.

And Shyvana: No gap closer, no escape, no cc, no burst (no finnisher and no poke), no sustain effects. Alright so if we take all that away the only thing to balance that is: mobility, stats and pure damage.
a) Mobility - a 3 sec speed boost... thats not even enough to get out of Jax's jump range not talking about catching up with anything. Not with a 12 sec cooldown.
b) Stats - her starting stats are great, although that doesnt really give you that much. Remember that you could have +1000 AD, if you get kited and cant hit anything its worth nothing.
Her tankyness ... meh. Lets face it +20 Armor/magic pen on her ulti on LV18 isnt really a gamechanger. Especially in the current patch, where its more cost efficient to just buy pure HP.
c) dmg: With a Hydra, Bloodthirster, wits end and at least one tank item you can jump the enemy team as a dragon and do some pretty neat aoe dmg.Her potential teamdmg is really high. but very situational and hard to pull off.

Ergo: With what she gives up and only pure speed and tankiness to get to a target, you would have to be able to kill ANY champ in a straight 1vs1 fight. As we know thats delusional. Neither her tankyness nor her dmg is close to make up for her kit.

She desperately needs a buff.

Some quotes I got lately:
"Dont pick Shyvana or I leave"
"Fed and still useless"
"Shes just not scary"
-----------

Let me put some more thought into her re-design:
Her traits: mobility, tankyness, aoe dmg, countergank, counterjungle, no mana, no cc, dealin ad and ap dmg.
Passive: Improving her skills with auto attacks. (The skills could actually do that on their own giving her space for another passive)
Ideas:
- Monsterslayer: Doing bonus dmg against minions/monsters
- Dragonhoard: Gaining bonus gold for every killed minion or monster - Both would make sense for counterjungling and such an item heavy champ.
- Dragonage: Gaining AD, Armor, MGres /Lv or time passed. - Would give her some ADC character
- True seeing: in a large area around her reveals all enemys (works in brushes but not invisible champions) - would make sense for counterjungling.

Q - For now lets stick to it.
W - could run longer, to make long distance running easier + anti cc effect. (If she doesnt get cc, take it away from others) It could run longer for half a secon for every level. +2 sec when maxed
E - A fireball alright. Scales of AD, doing magic damage ? Reduce armor, could ignite or negate healing ? (See above, you have no sustain? then take it from others)
In dragon form it could change to a aoe poke. something like jayce. A channeled fireball blats. ^^
R - Dragonform Maybe bonus AD or change it to an actual tank effect like: reduces all incoming dmg by 10/20/30% or something like that. You Jump into the enemy team. at the best amumu, malphite or sejuani went ahead and you jump after them. Otherwise you get focussed REALLY hard. The problem is that you dont survive it as easily as amumu and the others as you neither have a tank skill nor an aoe stun.


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Phoe Dragon

Senior Member

01-19-2013

Bump. I agree with most of these comments. I've played Shyv since she came out. She is usually a good fighter but she lacks that gap closer, that sort of sustainability. It seems she is only based on fighting someone 1v1. She needs a bit of work. I've put my opinions on other shyv threads but I feel the need just to agree everywhere.


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Aroph

Member

01-19-2013

I only find Shyvana useful in early to mid game ganks as a jungler. However, even then, there are many champions who could use Ghost, Flash, or any dash skill to simply escape. Besides, the only CC he has is her ultimate.

Near late game, you're forced to build a Ravenous Hydra and a few tanky items to become useful. In team fights, I usually CC everyone with ultimate, use E, use Q to hit everyone, then I chase away people and occasionally Q when it comes off cooldown.

All of this, however, doesn't have a good damage output, either.

I put up a suggestion a little while back, but it died out:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2997401


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copperpoint

Senior Member

01-20-2013

@Aroph: I checked your threat:
Interesting ideas for the E, as I agree, its her biggest weakness and feels like she has 1 skill less then other champs.

Your ideas: Some sort of slow on the fireball, with reduced dmg. Would be nice.
I like the idea of removing the animation time, never thought about it, but that really a bummer.


After thinking about it more:

Some ideas:
Q - when activated gives a MS buff as long as its not "used up".
----- Gives her more overall ms to move around the map. Now you can use one for a limited attack charge and still have the spin as an escape.

W - removes CC effects on activation.
---- Either this or a tenacity bonus on her ulti. But she desp. needs something against CC. Even with this its hard enough to get and stick to a target.

E- theres a lot of space there. I cant repeat it every time.
a) remove the casting time ! ---- Stopping in a chase makes it insanely useless.
b) When hit with Q afterwards give some bonus effect. Like a mini stun (Jax stun, Udyr, leona...)
c) at least partly scale it on ad or increase the bonus dmg on ad. True damage would be neat, but over the top I guess.
---- I would gladly trade the bonus magic dmgor armor shred against a stun.

R- Not so sure if the 10/15/20 ar/mres is really up to date. The new items make such stats way less effective then it used to be in S2. And I dont like that her Ulti and only cc effect is still countered by other CC effects. Jump into a spinnning wukong ? End of the road for you - I think he doesnt even get the dmg.
Maybe an increase to 10/20/30 would do the trick already.

With those changes she would get way more flexibility and mobility. A stun OPTION would really improve her team fights. Even if its a short one. This one would be simmilar to Jax. You see it coming and can evade it rather easily, so it wouldnt make her op.


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PerfidiousAlbion

Senior Member

01-20-2013

Personally I think most of you are seriously underselling her. She scales extremely well into late game. She's both durable and has a high damage output. She has amazing AoE with her ult. Sure she needs a bit of help from her teammates on the first large camp, but that's come to be expected anyway.

She needs a bit of a buff for jungling, that much is true. All that requires is unnerfing her W's duration with her passive. Then she's back to being an extremely fast jungler, which was her whole purpose in jungling to begin with.


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copperpoint

Senior Member

01-20-2013

@PerfidiousAlbion

Like pointed out before: The stats dont matter if you can barely land a hit in the first place.

And I wont back of from my opinion on her E.
A hard to land skillshot, that does nothing on its own, even when it hits. Only if you hit him afterwards without having a gapcloser.

You can have fun with her in random games- yes, but for ranked ? Seriously, I would better pick a champ thats more flexible and still does a good amount of dmg. Garren, Xin, Jax... Those do very good damage as well and are way safer to play. And if fed they are way more scary then a fed Shyvana.


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PerfidiousAlbion

Senior Member

01-20-2013

Quote:
copperpoint:
@PerfidiousAlbion

Like pointed out before: The stats dont matter if you can barely land a hit in the first place.


Her ability to land a hit hasn't changed. Given that, and the fact that she was considered quite strong only a few months ago, I'd have to say you're wrong. She's hardly the only champion that needs to get Phage to assist with sticking to a target.

Quote:
copperpoint:
And I wont back of from my opinion on her E.
A hard to land skillshot, that does nothing on its own, even when it hits. Only if you hit him afterwards without having a gapcloser.


It's no harder to land than other skill shots. Having a 260 damage 925 range poke is nothing? The fact that it gives her a 40 damage on-hit proc and 15% armor reduction gives it great synergy with the rest of her kit and scaling with AS and damage, but doesn't mean the abilities base effects are bad.

Her ult is a 1000 range gap closer. Her W gives her the speed boost needed to stick to a target.

Quote:
copperpoint:
You can have fun with her in random games- yes, but for ranked ? Seriously, I would better pick a champ thats more flexible and still does a good amount of dmg. Garren, Xin, Jax... Those do very good damage as well and are way safer to play. And if fed they are way more scary then a fed Shyvana.


Shyvanna is no riskier to play than Xin. She has very comparable survivability and a speed boost to escape if need be as well as naturally higher MS. Xin's only option is to ult, and that doesn't even work if he did any AAing first.

Shyvanna does more AoE damage than any of those champions (yes, more AoE than Garen) and is the only one of the lot of them to have a poke. I agree she needs a buff, but you guys are massively overplaying her weaknesses. The fact that someone claimed she didn't scale well should be embarrassing. The fact that apparently many people agree with him is disturbing. Her late game scaling has always been one of her high points.