Shyvana's State in Season 3

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Paaske Da Bes

Senior Member

01-27-2013

And when we talk about cordinated teams, they're obv also much better at shutting her down.

There's not really any point of talking balance in uncoordinated vs coordinated teams.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Martyrofsand

Senior Member

01-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paaske Da Bes View Post
And when we talk about cordinated teams, they're obv also much better at shutting her down.

There's not really any point of talking balance in uncoordinated vs coordinated teams.




Actually if you are talking balance you should always be talking about coordinated teams in a TEAM GAME.

All champs should be balanced around their spot in a 5v5 and what they bring and how teams build with/around them. When you "balance" a champ to be insanely strong without thinking of their place in a team you get champs like Nid, Diana, Jayce, and Darius all of which have or are currently OP.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Kennenpurity

Junior Member

01-27-2013

How has ten pages of this, along with the other threads about her, not gotten an address from riot? It's not like everybody is just saying "OMG MY FAV CHAMP'S LIKE SOOOO UP, MAKE HER SUPERMEGAAWESOMESAUCE" these are relatively good ideas that make sense. I admittedly didn't play Shyvana much in Season 2 but I did play her a few times and once or twice in a ranked game, and she was amazing if you could counter-jungle half decently and get a kill/assist or two before 10 minutes. However, I didn't like jungling so I'm not a pro on her in S2. However I picked jungling back up S3 with Shyvana as my main, along with Shaco and Jarvan. Out of the three she is IMO the worst, however most fun. Her role doesn't make sense in the current LoL, with the jungle revamp aiming to increase the usefulness of single-target jungles it didn't really cripple her, but I always finish the jungle up with much lower Health than on any other jungles which makes it higher risk to do the only thing she excels at, counterjungling. I tested Thresh a few time in the jungle for fun, and averaged a higher % health walking out of my first clear than with Shyvana (much slower)... Same Armor runes, similar masteries. But that's not the point, my biggest issue with Shyvana is her inability to "fully-tank" or "fully-carry". She is like a weaker bruiser that can't last in S3, mainly because of her Ult's passive but also because she has no sustain or cc to help her out once she dives. I do win most games I play with her, however I walk out with stats like 2/6/19, 1/8/15 and 6/9/13. Once you dive, you die. Especially if you don't build straight tanky. I like to build Statikk Shiv for the move speed (I know its not a great item for her) but it seems if I buy anything aside from Frozen Mallet, Wit's end and another 2 tank items I'm useless after a few seconds in a fight. I personally don't think her role was meant to be as tank, or as full carry but a unique blend of the two, not in a bruiser sense but similar. Admittedly I'm a noob with Shyvana, and in general, but I feel like she could be a great deal more useful if her Ult, or E got a tweak and they added/changed an item to more suit her needs and a tank. I just don't want to pick her over the infinitely more useful junglers in S3.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Kennenpurity

Junior Member

01-27-2013

I just wrote something really long and meaningful, but wasn't signed in so I lost it... Anyways, Shyvana isn't UP. She's more undesirable compared to the infinitely more useful junglers and top lanes in S3. She's good, don't get me wrong, but not in the sense that she used to be. I always end up with stats like 2/6/19, 1/8/15, or 6/9/13. If you try to tank without being built and they have anybody with APen or MPen you're just gonna die instantly and if you want to dps you're going to be outdone by almost every other champion ever because your E is mostly useless and your Q can only take you so far. Anyway to cut this short, she does need a rework compared to many of the other champions to accommodate for the changes in S3. She could use an item since Black Cleaver doesn't suite her nearly as good as it does other similar champs and the only options she has are tanky items if she wants to be useful to her team. Try to play Shyvana without Frozen Mallet or Wit's End and you'll just embarrass yourself. This is from personal experience, she didn't get worse from S2, but literally every other champion she would be compared to got better. And I'm surprised how much attention she is getting on the forums without a Riot response. So many different forums on different regions, all with really good arguments and ideas that make perfect sense compared to most people just saying "OMG MY FAV CHAMP'S UP, MAKE HIM SUPERMEGAAWESOMESUACE"

Edit: Whoops it showed up after all... Sorry for double post


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

copperpoint

Senior Member

01-28-2013

@Paaske:
@Sacred:

Yes and no..f Of course EVERY champ becomes better in a good team, but what I meant is that champs like Lee, Xin, Garen ... can do pretty well on their own. If they get fed, they can carry a game pretty well, even if another lane (sometimes even 2) screw it up.
Shyvana has so little for teamfights, that the skills of her team are a major factor in her teamfight power.

Good example is Ezreal, he is one of the most picked adc, because he can do well even when the supp is bad.

@Kennen: Yea, I would love to finally see some attention on her too.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Martyrofsand

Senior Member

01-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by copperpoint View Post
@Paaske:
@Sacred:

Yes and no..f Of course EVERY champ becomes better in a good team, but what I meant is that champs like Lee, Xin, Garen ... can do pretty well on their own. If they get fed, they can carry a game pretty well, even if another lane (sometimes even 2) screw it up.
Shyvana has so little for teamfights, that the skills of her team are a major factor in her teamfight power.

Good example is Ezreal, he is one of the most picked adc, because he can do well even when the supp is bad.

@Kennen: Yea, I would love to finally see some attention on her too.



I've seen an 11/0 Lee Sin not be able to carry, multiple times.

I've seen 8/2 Xin Zhaos get absolutely destroyed.

Garen...really you think Garen can carry a game when fed....okaaaay.


I carry as Shyvana on a pretty damn regular basis and have not lost a single game with her in which I got fed. She is on a short list of champs I can say that for, the others being Kayle, Darius, Singed, Graves, and Ezreal.

The only change Shyvana needs is a change in the minds of people think she is underpowered when they are playing and building her horribly wrong or picking her in team comps she has no business being in.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Axhliay

Senior Member

01-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SacredMesa View Post
I've seen an 11/0 Lee Sin not be able to carry, multiple times.

I've seen 8/2 Xin Zhaos get absolutely destroyed.

Garen...really you think Garen can carry a game when fed....okaaaay.


I carry as Shyvana on a pretty damn regular basis and have not lost a single game with her in which I got fed. She is on a short list of champs I can say that for, the others being Kayle, Darius, Singed, Graves, and Ezreal.

The only change Shyvana needs is a change in the minds of people think she is underpowered when they are playing and building her horribly wrong or picking her in team comps she has no business being in.
Just because YOU carry with Shyvana, means nothing. Overall, Shyvana was gimped by the Season 3 changes, You can't just up and say I carry with Shyvana, because it doesn't work like that.

Every champion has strengths and weaknesses. Shyvana's was her early game dueling, and her ability to counterjungle. With the increase in the health of the monsters, Shyvana now has to remain longer in teh enemy jungle to steal things. Which is a much bigger risk. In regards to her dueling, Armor pen has a massive part to play. Most of Shyvana's damage is magic, so she gets less benefit from it than Lee or Nocturne.

Can she make use of it? Yes. But its not in the best way. Hence why Hybrid runes are great on her.

She used her early game to get in and steal as many of the enemy buffs as possible. Now that that has been weakened, what does she have? Her late game is average compared to alot of other bruisers

So if she is weaker in alot of areas what sense is there to pick her competetively.?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

copperpoint

Senior Member

01-28-2013

@Sacred:I see those champs having heavy impact on the game on a regular base. And garren is hell if fed and played right, so yes, he can carry, saw it a couple of times.

Ive been able to carry in 3vs3, because if she gets ahead there, there are only 3 not 5 poeple against her.
In certain situations you can actually fight that off with her. But thats something other chars can do too or way better. Any fed bruiser with a cc effect is way more dangerous then her.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Martyrofsand

Senior Member

01-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axhliay View Post
Just because YOU carry with Shyvana, means nothing. Overall, Shyvana was gimped by the Season 3 changes, You can't just up and say I carry with Shyvana, because it doesn't work like that.

Every champion has strengths and weaknesses. Shyvana's was her early game dueling, and her ability to counterjungle. With the increase in the health of the monsters, Shyvana now has to remain longer in teh enemy jungle to steal things. Which is a much bigger risk. In regards to her dueling, Armor pen has a massive part to play. Most of Shyvana's damage is magic, so she gets less benefit from it than Lee or Nocturne.

Can she make use of it? Yes. But its not in the best way. Hence why Hybrid runes are great on her.

She used her early game to get in and steal as many of the enemy buffs as possible. Now that that has been weakened, what does she have? Her late game is average compared to alot of other bruisers

So if she is weaker in alot of areas what sense is there to pick her competetively.?



Um clear times with Shyvana has been largely untouched, same with her counter jungling. In S2 I cleared a wraith camp with her with a Wriggles in about 3-4 seconds, I still do the exact same with her in S3. This perception that she got slower in the jungle or has more difficulty clearing simply isn't true.

Noc, Mundo, Shyvana, Maokai, Diana, and to a lesser extent Lee Sin, really didn't have their clear times hit all that hard if at all by the S3 patch, now patches after that are a different story, but by in large the jungle changes in terms of the actual jungle camps themselves actually HELPS Shyvana. Counter jungling is absolutely brutal now and Shyvana excells at that almost uncontested, Mundo and Noc are really the only two with potential to match her. Shyvana also has a much easier time getting out than either of those two namely because of burnout at early levels and dragon once you hit 6. Mundo doesn't get his move speed until he gets his ult and nocs move speed has a short distance and makes his path predictable.

If you are having issues counter jungling as Shyvana stop blaming the jungle or Shyvana because neither of them are the problem.

Also if people, I am not the only one, are consistantly carring games with Shyvana and have been since S3 patch has dropped I think that says a lot. Those of us who build and play her correctly have abo****ely zero problems carring and dominating games with her, including when going against these new supposedly awesome champs that completely out do her.


Copperpoint my comments have been about 5s not 3s. While I do carry very effectively with Shyvana in 3s I carry even harder in 5s when her map dominance and counter jungle ability is the most brutal.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Titanomagnus

Senior Member

01-28-2013

Yes, Shyvana has been outstripped by other champs that perform better in melee than she does.

NOT because of her abilities

NOT because a select group of players are 'miracle' workers who can apparently type better than 99% of the gamers.

Rather because her rage system and abilities currently don't work as well as they were originally designed for their CURRENT opponents.


Shyvana is awesome, her concept, her theme is awesome.


Ever since I played with her, I noticed that her rage system is flawed and lacks a great deal of control.

Her only gap closer/rage generator is her ultimate, a ridiculously long CD to retain some measure of control over the kind of fighting she's meant to do.


Riot please re-vamp her in some way that she has better control of rage generation, because in its current state, it is too loosely controlled NO MATTER the skill of the player behind her.

Thanx