Parsing information about the Dominion feedback thread on Reddit. Plus commentary.

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Golly

Senior Member

01-18-2013

Because of the sheer volume of replies, I am going to truncate some of these quotes. I am not cherry picking or removing something that may be detrimental to my ultimate point. If you are interested in seeing the full quotes of each, I will include links to the comments in the corresponding reddit thread. I am also removing certain comments that were answered in that thread sufficiently, or for the sake of repetition, have been answered satisfactorily before.

The topic of this Reddit thread was, "Do you think a Dominion exclusive win of the day would draw you to play Dominion more, if not, what are some ideas that would?" The whole thread can be found here: http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflege...s_looking_for/

http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflege...ng_for/c7xnlvc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oreden
...things keeping me from playing [dominion] more than I do:...

Itemization right now is pretty much a fight to see which team has more Black cleavers/Blackfire torches. Pretty much everyone gets those items and they get them first, dealing ridiculous damage. Warmogs doesn't exist and GA is pretty useless given the length of the games, which basically limits your defense options against it. Not saying there are no defense options, but there are fewer defense options. And they don't always mean much anyway.

Also on the topic of itemization, I don't like a few of the item differences. For example, I cannot get wards or a sight stone when I play Lee Sin, which means I cannot use the ward into safeguard trick for whatever I may want it for. Also Sanguine Blade's AD and lifesteal are not at a very consistent value (compared to BT, which is more consistent), which throws me off, often to the point of avoiding the item entirely because I want more solid numbers. This being said, Entropy is pretty much the ****.

The map isn't exactly balanced. Tanky DPS champions are out of control right now. Singed can more or less build BFT, Rylais and tank items and wreck anyone (or almost anyone), as an example. On summoners rift I feel like there is a time and a place for every champion, but less so on dominion. Nasus for instance will hardly be able to get Q farm, so you don't see him all that often...

...ideas draw people in to play more dominion:

More money. If you could reach full build almost every game, I feel like that would draw more people in, even if it was just to test builds. Sometimes you just wanna try some stuff out, and a violent battleground like dominion is fun way to break in a build IMO. If you started with less money/levels as well, you could provide a better feeling of scaling from nothing to maximum strength over the course of the game. But that's not really important compared to the money thing...

...Change itemization a bit. I will give you that this is preseason 3 and itemization changes need to be made in more than just dominion, but there are just way to many BFTs and BCs. Maybe if there were some more dominion specific support items or something, support champions might have incentive to build support instead of just straight damage/tankyness like I usually see. Might open up new possibilities for champions as well. Allow people to choose if they want to buy into utility or damage or durability instead of one being quite a bit more valued than the others.
Then, in response to someone saying BFT is not overpowered:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oredon
...My issue is not that these items are broken, I just don't like seeing them as often as I do/feeling forced to buy one. The extra pen and damage is just so good on so many champions, I rarely feel like I have good reason not to get one of them.
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflege...ng_for/c7xqqy8

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosOS
TBH it's more of a few poorly designed champs coughKasscough, an item that isn't available on SR that breaks trap champions coughBFTcough, and then champs that are generally OP coughKha'Zixcough who are just being discovered on SR. AKA, someone who needs a rework still being broken, an item that got released way too strong that only affects Dominion balance, and SR players not experimenting as much as Dominion due to much slower iterations on builds and playstyles for mid-late game when you have items because you have to get through lane phase first. Ultimately, nothing intrinsic about the mode is unbalanced.
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflege...ng_for/c7xkvtl

Quote:
Originally Posted by navarres
The only reason I don't play dominion right now is because of that godamn cursor bug that hides my cursor (usually when trying to cap a turret or interrupt a capture) Then I'm running around chicken headed hoping the issue will resolve itself because if I restart my computer, (the only way to fix the problem manually) the game is usually done by the time I come back.
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflege...ng_for/c7xmwz7

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielZKlein
I think bribing people into playing a game mode that they don't naturally want to play is a bad idea. That said, please don't think that we've given up on Dominion or are ignoring the game mode in any way.
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflege...ng_for/c7xng8h

Quote:
Originally Posted by THC4k
Whatever the problems with dominion may be, ranked queues are the solution. The only way to balance a game is to give players incentives to optimize their strategy. Riot actually knows this and all they do it is nerf the most picked/banned champions (see Diana, Rengar, HoG and so on).
As long as there is no ranked there is no real point in playing the dominating strategy every game. Therefore it takes a while for new players to meet these strategies and when they do, they are like "wtf this game suxx, so inbalanced".
If there was ranked some champions would be banned and picked every single game, even harder than on SR. Riot would have a actualy chance to figure out what's wrong with the game.

TL;DR: Ranked leads to balance leads to players. Ask for players first and you're doing it wrong.
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflege...ng_for/c7xlld8

Quote:
Originally Posted by rupertbayern
I play Dominion sometimes. Its fast its... well you know. I have a problem with dominion: everything seems to be completly chaotic and there is nearly no communication. But you need this for this gametype. No meta as far as i know and everyone goes tunnelsight (see hero, kill hero) there...
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflege...ng_for/c7xsxha

Quote:
Originally Posted by donginmymouth
...Lack of professional scene really hurts. The more competitive the game, the more people will look to play it. But it's hard to be motivated to be competitive in Dominion if there are too few Dominion players to look up to. Now, granted, there aren't that many to begin with, but there are ways to gain exposure for those existing top players, such as Featured Streamer for Dominion players, Featured Dominion games for spectating accessible from the client, etc.

Accessibility of guides to help new players quickly learn how to play the map. One reason I no longer play Dominion is that I'm familiar with SR and know how to get better. But when it comes to Dominion, I have no clue what I'm doing; I feel clueless in champ select, clumsy in-game, and whether I win or lose, I can't tell if I don't really know how I did that game. Phreak's champion spotlights need to show how those champions fare/play on different maps (Vi's didn't feature Dominion). Guides on popular sites, like Solomid, Lolpro, Championselect, Mobafire (regardless of how good/bad they are), need to make an effort to construct sections for Dominion and make them easily understandable/navigable.

Increased Exp/IP gain for Dominion queue. This is a pretty straightforward solution. For example, if one Dominion normal game gave you 1000 IP, then I'm sure everyone would play it. As the rewards currently stand, there is little incentive to play Dominion. I'm sure we could find some middle-ground.
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflege...ng_for/c7xpkxo

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3diot
As an avid dominion player, I don't know how I feel about a dominion queue. I play dominion for fun and to relax. I don't know if I want to play competitively with it. But with that said, I do not enjoy losing either. I play to win, so maybe I would enjoy a ranked dominion queue.

One downside of dominion for myself and probably others is that friends and others are not interested in it and don't take it seriously as they do a 5v5, even though there are tactics and strategies that are used to win. A ranked queue would be interesting. The summoner profile should only show two ELOs and emblems: Solo/Duo Queue and Ranked Teams (5v5). Once clicking the arrow beside classic, should you be able to choose to view a Solo / 3v3s TT ratings and a Dominion Solo / 5v5s ratings. I think that change would make the profile look a bit smoother.

On an unrelated note, I would love to gain more ip than 70~ for a win. That's nearly the same amount of IP gained when losing a SR game! I would be happy with just some IP buffs to dominion.
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflege...ng_for/c7xpnd7

Quote:
Originally Posted by iDontRagequit
I would play dominion more if other people knew how to properly dominion... Sorry if I sound bitter about the subject, I am.
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflege...ng_for/c7xqdk5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowbeak
I know other people have mentioned this already, but I, too, was turned off by getting flamed for not knowing what I was doing when I first tried it.
I also wasn't even interested for a while because I was focusing on improving skills in Summoner's Rift...
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflege...ng_for/c7xqk64

Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Bdy
i played a few dominion games today (i've played 8 total including today). And the biggest problem is that trolling is accepted (or at least nobody complains about it). I had some people who really didn't care about anything.

I've played about 5 arams with complete random people, and i've never had anybody rage or meet any trolls/feeders, but the people in my arams still try to win. Arams are in a really good place right now. They are try hard, but not serious.

My problem with dominion is that nobody takes it seriously. Even arams are more serious.
I asked in ALL of my dominion games today if there was a meta/strategy, and nobody answered me. one guy even laughed and insulted me by calling me a tryhard noob. I still don't know if I should just sit at a base and defend, or if people just roam randomly...
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflege...ng_for/c7xt35t

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnbiasTobias
For a period of time I would have said that I enjoyed Dominion more than I did classic, but, and I'm ashamed to say this, I haven't played a single Dominion match since the pre-season. Anyways, I love Dominion but it has three core issues stopping me from continuing playing it.

1: The community is less susceptible to help and knowledge in Dominion, making Dominion almost metaless for newcomers.

2: Champions are not balanced around Dominion making for champions clearly better than the rest, leading to balance issues far beyond that of which has ever been seen in classic LoL.

3: No ranked. What's there to work towards? All that being said; yes. I would play more Dominion if it had an exclusive win of the day bonus.
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflege...ng_for/c7xu6sw

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legitamte
Personally, I feel like Dominion would need to shake the perception of being more "casual" or for "goofing around" (as many comments even in this thread indicate it has) before it could get a ranked queue. Fact is, because of that perception, I think the vast majority of the player base has not only zero interest in becoming good at Dominion, but in fact do not even respect players who are actually good at Dominion, and that respect is critical.

I'd be willing to bet a lot of people play Summoner's Rift because it's recognized as deep and strategic, and people who are good at it are accordingly well-respected, and it's understandably aspirational to gain respect for being good at something you enjoy (to any aliens reading this post, FYI: this is a core element of human psychology.) In addition--and this is critical--these players are able to appreciate the things that the pros do that make them good at Summoner's Rift, even if they can't imitate those things perfectly, and this in turn inspires more people to learn and master Summoner's Rift by giving them something to aim for. Honestly, I would be shocked if the vast majority of people who play ranked games don't do it because they were inspired by watching a pro play, and/or have a fantasy of being a professional LoL player, even if they know they will most likely never actually attain it. These kinds of games are able to grab people the way they do because once you get into it, and you see what the best of the best can do, you'll always have something deep down that tells you maybe, just maybe, if I try really hard, I can be that amazing, too.

And this may be where Dominion has trouble. See, I know that high-level Dominion play exists, and that it apparently has a lot of depth--hell, I was a design intern at Riot when they were making the damn thing--but I know basically nothing about high-level Dominion strategy. I don't think I'd even get very much from just watching a high-level player play it, either--I wouldn't know what I'm looking for. I know that the majority of the player base is probably even less informed, and what's out of sight is out of mind--what reason do they have to care about high-level Dominion play when they have no idea what high-level Dominion play means?

So, if you want more people to play Dominion, you need people to take Dominion seriously as a strategically deep game mode, so that people will aspire to be good at it. If you want people to do that, they need to have pros that they can watch and aspire to emulate, which they can only do if they can appreciate what the pro does that makes him pro. And if you want them to do that...

What I'd propose is that the high-level Dominion players work together to make a series of promotional videos, tutorials, guides, etc. that showcase high-level Dominion play, explaining all the ins and outs in a way that a Dominion "virgin" could understand. That will allow the community at large to better appreciate those aspects of Dominion strategy that differ from Summoner's Rift, which will in turn allow them to appreciate watching high-level Dominion players. As soon as you do that, it suddenly becomes aspirational to be a high-level Dominion player, and players will flock to it to seek their fortune. With enough attention, they will clamor for a ranked queue in which to prove their prowess, and... well, happily ever after.
My response to this was: Would you watch such tutorial videos that were fan-made? If someone were to dedicate the time and effort into making them, would you check a website like dominate dominion in order to watch them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legitamte
I think I would, if it were obviously aimed at learning "advanced" tactics on Dominion, not another basic introduction ("so this is a capture point..."). Think about that famous "zoning" tutorial Shurelia made way back in the day that a lot of newbies probably had sent to them at some point--it was easy to understand, but covered advanced material that many newbies weren't aware of. Videos like that get the viewer wondering how deep the rabbit hole goes, so to speak.

I would say that such videos would be a good place to promote the website--just a quick "be sure to check out DominateDominion for more tutorials and guides to everything Dominion!" at the end of the video would probably work well. If you launched this effort with a few videos being simultaneously released, it would probably go a long way to getting people hooked on learning more--maybe you release a general high-level strategy video and a couple Champion guide videos to start, then release a new video every week (or whatever schedule makes sense.) More traditional Champ guides aimed at Dominion posted on solomid.net or LoLPro would also be great. Honestly, just the perception of steady content creation will by itself emphasize that learning Dominion is a deep and worthwhile endeavor, and the quality and depth of the content itself will reinforce that...
There are simply too many quotes like these to collect them into a single post here. There is plenty of information here to draw some conclusions.

1) Playing Dominion as a new player is a bit like pushing a child into the deep end of a pool. There is no preparation. The lack of a tutorial or easily (read: Riot developed) accessible material is hindering new growth.

A good START to alleviating this problem is to simply sticky Sauron's Tier list (maybe rename it) and Nekrogen's guide. This requires maybe 30 seconds of time and would probably help new players immediately. If I'm a new player, and I've just lost my first 5 games of Dominion I *might* spend the time to check out the dominion forums. If these aren't easily found, then I may just say "Screw it." and never fire up the mode again. And on that note, there should be a DD thread stickied as well, because let's face it. It's the only thing holding the community together at this point.

A good long-term solution would be to create some instructional videos. This is how you play dominion. This is what a quest is. This is how it affects your team's points. These are bonuses that boost your personal score but have no ultimate effect on your team's score, etc.

An even better solution is to have Riot poney up some dough to hire Sauron to make some advanced mechanics videos. I.E. "This is a strong response when Windmill has been captured, and you have prematurely blown your revive and now have 15 seconds to kill while your team respawns..." etc.

The best option is to have in-game tutorials that incorporate all of the above.

2) Players, even novice players (i.e. not top .001%) want ranked. And not just for the prospect of playing it. Nome saying that people asking for ranked aren't realizing it's not a causation issue b/c only a small amount of people would play competitively is a HUGE misconception.

Players want to be able to look at competitive people and say, "Ok, I want to emulate what this player does, because his elo is high and there is a reason for that."

Without any Riot tutorial or easily accessed Riot guides, there is an even larger demand for a ranking, so the average person that doesn't bother going to the Dominion forums or have knowledge about Dominate Dominion can look at a high ranked person like Sauron, and seek out guides by him.

"Oh, he wrote this giant guide to Dominion, I'll check that out."

Otherwise, Sauron is just a prolific singer to the choir.

There are a lot of things that can be done. In a lot of different ways. Without even testing a ranked mode for Dominion, how can you possibly say it won't help the mode grow?

I don't even think Ranked has to be the ultimate end-goal. If Riot could give people something to work toward; a competitive scene, which it refuses to acknowledge or legitimize. We desperately need that, because let's face it: Right now, in the mind of everyone who does NOT play a lot of Dominion, it is the casual mode. It is the relaxing mode. It is what you play when you don't have much time. ARAM is taking the place of that, in the minds of a lot of players. Drawing even more people away from Dominion.

3) Dominion, as a place for testing out item balance, is not only hurting high end play... as in, high end people are leaving b/c of it, but it's hurting everyone. People who do not normally play the mode are coming into Dominion and seeing BFT spam, and wondering why they HAVE to take the item. It is too powerful.

I'm sure more information can be taken from that thread. There is a lot of it to look through.


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ZallKlos

Senior Member

01-18-2013

What Dominion really needs is better visibility of high level games.

When there is a major LoL tournament, there is a big "click here to view stream" button when you open the PVP.net client. That's easy access to high level play for SR.


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radicalratx

Senior Member

01-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZallKlos View Post
What Dominion really needs is better visibility of high level games.

When there is a major LoL tournament, there is a big "click here to view stream" button when you open the PVP.net client. That's easy access to high level play for SR.
Agreed.


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Golly

Senior Member

01-19-2013

Sometimes Dominion games are featured in the "Watch it now" spectator feed. But it needs to be displayed as Dominion, not "Normal".


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The Fizznity

Senior Member

01-19-2013

Let me pitch an idea to you: Feature DominateDominion. That is, make it displace one of the featured shop items or the video that just sits there being boring. Don't make it consume the client, but give players an easy window into top tier Dominion play.

This all hinges on Riot as a whole becoming re-acquainted with the existence of Dominion, but I think it would be precisely what Dominion needs.


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Camen Sieder

Senior Member

01-19-2013

It really is sad because I have a bunch of people on my friends list who enjoy dominion more than SR. They don't play it because of the IP and no rank, but are not big fans of the lane phase in SR.

The entire theme of passive XP and gold is insanely popular and it shows by the amount of people playing in ARAMs as well...