could we FINALLY make melee ADC viable?

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Skippy917

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Please upvote if you support this:


Gangplank
Tryndamere
AD Yi
Fiora

And i dont mean just viable on level 1 to 20...

Gangplank got nerfed so much, as does Trynda. Atempts to balance the frequintly used ranged adc items, the real hurt weant to their melee counterparts.

All those remakes, all these S3 changes, and you still did not fix them

Kinda sad that one whole class is not viable, makes ya wonder...

Every melee champion can build adc style, but riot... Its your job to make the ones that are supose to build like this, to actually WORK,

They dont have burst, less to non utility, and only offer raw DPS, whats the point if you cant even deliver the damage? Why just not remake their kits??

Remake them

But dont keep them like this

Copy from an other thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardamominal View Post
In DotA, the vast majority of carries available in the game are melee, agility carries. Whether it be Yurnero, Darkterror, Sylla, Riki, etc.

Now, in league, there used to be more melee than ranged carries, but things have changed a great deal since then. The only melee carries left are Tryndamere, Gangplank, Master Yi, Jax, and Fiora. Fiora is probably the only really viable one in a normal glass cannon state, while Tryndamere and Jax are the only ones being a glass cannon really works for. Gangplank is a bruiser at this point, and Yi is most often played as a mage.

However similar the games are, however, what is the cause for this huge disparity in the success of hard melee carries in dota yet their abysmal failure in league? Well, there are two reasons for this disparity.

1) Crowd Control Effects

Crowd control is meant as a way to peel people off your carry, initiate fights, prevent escapes, and close gaps. However, for melee carries in league it's nearly certain death. Hard CC offers little counter play in this game as opposed to DotA, where a number of abilities and one particular item, the Black King Bar, or BKB as it will be noted as here on throughout, grant magic immunity, which includes immunity from most stuns.

Thus, it is impossible for a melee carry to ever be truly viable in league of legends without a way to mitigate crowd control effects for a long enough time to gain a large amount of effective HP through lifesteal, as Yurnero does when buying a BKB and Vlad's.

But Cardamominal, I thought you said Fiora and Jax were viable melee carries?

Indeed I did. The reason is because of their effective HP granted by either Fiora's passive sustain and riposte, and Jax's grandmaster's might's armor and magic resistance. Tryndamere is close to viable because his ultimate grants him an unlimited amount of effective HP for 5 seconds. However, the reason he really isn't is because he can be stunned through the entire duration by chaining CC. The same honestly goes for Fiora, or even Jax if he's stunned before he can activate grandmaster's might.

But how can we solve this problem in League?

The solution is really quite simple and is just one of two solutions I offer. To reintroduce CC immunity via either an item or summoner spell. Now, this wouldn't necessarily make melee carries overpowered, either, as anyone could buy CC immunity. Be it ranged carries, which would greatly improve their kiting, or melee carries who desperately need the survivability without having to be turned into a Hard CC-less sup-par bruiser.

2) In DotA there is no such thing as a glass cannon

For DotA players reading this, you may all realize that agility carries passively gain damage for each point and armor for each 7 points of agility, and that strength carries passively gain health and damage for building more strength. This is why Jax is able to build a glass cannon when he activates grandmaster's might in a fight; he takes no penalty for building glass cannon.

But how can we do this in League when we don't have a 3 tier stat system?

This one is a bit complicated, but the way to solve this would be to give all melee carries a passive on one of their abilities, or even ultimates, where they gain armor and health for x points of attack damage. This would allow them to have more survivability in fights, but still make them just as vulnerable to CC and DPS/Health cleave as any other carry. This could be done in addition to adding magic immunity (please no), or done all on it's own.

But Cardamominal, what about ranged carries?

Ranged carries in this game are given honestly too much slack. They often times have higher effective damage output (They are less prone to crowd control through positioning, and thus, while having lower base damages and hp, get more damage out in a teamfight than a competing melee carry), lower risk gameplay, and higher reward for their lower risk. They can easily mitigate CC by their positioning and are honestly this game's easy button, given that on top of their mobility, they can also melt an entire enemy team through ultimates and auto attacks. To be completely fair, ranged carries are more or less an overpowered class. Any class that regularly picks up pentas compared to other classes at any stage of the game, would be nerfed into the ground. Ranged carries on the other hand, have not been.

And yes, I'm aware melee carries are not something Morello likes. I can understand why, they could be incredibly pubstompy and insanely difficult to balance. However, I would just like to get the point across that there are non-game breaking ways (my second option stated above) to get them into working order competitively. Not only that, but many of us really truly like the idea of running around with a sword and dealing tons of damage like our ranged counterparts while not having to essentially be a damage sponge.


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Your Persona

Member

01-17-2013

It's tricky to properly balance a melee carry.

The whole point of a carry is a champion who's weak/subpar early on but gets crazy strong later so they can, well, carry.

But with a melee carry, if they're weak early game, they'll get shut out by a ranged carry or a bruiser and be useless. If they're strong early game, you've got someone who starts able to hold their own and only gets stronger and stronger to the point of absurdity (Pre-nerf Tryndamere comes to mind, though I didn't play when pre-nerf Trynd was around so I might be wrong).

How do you make a champion's early game so weak that they can't go toe to toe with bruisers, but make them strong enough that they don't get shut down within the first 10 minutes?


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ThrillOfTheBlunt

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Senior Member

01-17-2013

just add a 5 sec aoe stun in the shape of a circle to tryndamere


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Skippy917

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Your Persona View Post
It's tricky to properly balance a melee carry.

The whole point of a carry is a champion who's weak/subpar early on but gets crazy strong later so they can, well, carry.

But with a melee carry, if they're weak early game, they'll get shut out by a ranged carry or a bruiser and be useless. If they're strong early game, you've got someone who starts able to hold their own and only gets stronger and stronger to the point of absurdity (Pre-nerf Tryndamere comes to mind, though I didn't play when pre-nerf Trynd was around so I might be wrong).

How do you make a champion's early game so weak that they can't go toe to toe with bruisers, but make them strong enough that they don't get shut down within the first 10 minutes?
My point is, i can build irelia,poppy,nasus etc... All like an ADC, and actually preform better, why? Couse they have utility, building them ADC style is silly, couse they have better and other build options,

Champions with just an AD steroid, and or attack speed steroid, with low base damage on skills, and non-utility, just does not work


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Remikai

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Never gonna happen. I've accepted that.

Melee wins at low summoner levels because people dont not have kiting skills.

To make them viable at level 30 skill levels.... Newbies get facerolled and quit.


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Skippy917

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remikai View Post
Never gonna happen. I've accepted that.

Melee wins at low summoner levels because people dont not have kiting skills.

To make them viable at level 30 skill levels.... Newbies get facerolled and quit.
Erm, darius is 10x worse on low levels then any other champion,

And melee carries need a rework, all of them, i enjoy to win with Gangplank, but if i stomp my lane with any of the above named champs, my lane opponent should concider himself lucky that i did not take a viable champion to begin with


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Skippy917

Senior Member

01-17-2013

I dare a red to explain their logic


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Geomexis

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Senior Member

01-17-2013

How do you propose you make melee carries work? Giving them tankier stats or hard CC makes them into bruisers. And any items you make for them specifically are also usable by bruisers and ranged carries.

They're substantially better this season, it's just that balancing them is near impossible due to the fact that they're supposed to be identical to ranged carries in every way except as a melee alternative.
Ask yourself, what could you possibly add to a melee carry to make you use it over a ranged one without turning it into a bruiser or assassin?


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Draznath

Senior Member

01-17-2013

It's not the champion that needs to be fixed. The whole concept as a whole is flawed. By definition, the Carry is someone that can dish out a TON of damage, thus carrying the team. They sit in the back because they are weak and can be bursted down easily.

If you have a melee carry, he does a TON of damage... but he doesn't have the luxury of sitting in the backline away from harm.

The Melee Carrys you listed, imo, should be remade into one of the following:

Assassin
Bruiser

TL;DR The concept of Melee Carry isn't plausible and they should change them to Assassins or Bruisers


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12fingerJIM

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Jax is basically what a melee carry would need to be, he's got it all.


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