Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? @Morello @Feralpony @IronStylus @Xypherous

First Riot Post
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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

02-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zahaele View Post


Also, although you might not necessarily agree with me, I think Irelia DOES, in fact, have a theme to work with. Considering Irelia's backstory, the battle she was in involves her coming back "from the brink of death" to slay down the enemy Noxians. Look at her passive; it works better the more enemies are near her. Her E is stronger when she's at a lower health % than her target. Imagine you were in a toplane, you and your laning opponent are both at around 1/3 or 1/2 hp, whatever it may be. Your opponent initiates a trade with you and gets you low. Suddenly, your blades fight back, stunning him. They start to glow and suddenly your attacks deal noticably more damage and start healing you more. You use your ultimate on the creep wave and your opponent, keeping you alive despite him trying to auto you death. You end up coming out on top thanks to the stun on your E and your ability to start healing a lot more when you need to. A similar thing could happen in a teamfight when you jump on their carry, and yet even though you are outnumbered and there are people who want you away from their Kog'Maw you still get through their mass CC because of how your passive is.

Irelia's theme, I think, is about being more powerful when the odds are against her. Now, it's probably not represented very well, granted, but I think that's what Riot was trying to get at.
Hmm, I'd have to disagree. She was tailored to counter the "everyone is a ranged carry" meta, and her abilities point to that. If you're arguing towards the "good when the odds are against her" coherence, only her wonky slow/stun work towards that (as her innate and ult only encourage her to teamfight, and her true damage/heal on-hit only serve to grant her increased damage output and sustain).

And yes--like you said, thematically, any element of "good when the going gets tough" is completely absent from her visual design (ie. you wouldn't be able to tell that this is what she's all about just by looking at her--which is bad for readability and well below the bar that has been set for champion), so if it were to be incorporated 100%, it would have to be on a completely different champion.

On top of that, it's a fairly vague and abstract theme, and not really something that the player can control--would someone, as an Irelia player, try to constantly put themselves in a bad spot so they can turn tides that didn't necessarily have to be turned before Irelia decided to throw every principle of good play out the window? How would you counterplay this? Just avoid having an advantage over her?

That's part of why I scrapped the Karma redesign (on top of her visual design lacking any sort of characteristic/iconic "sticking power"--easily one of the most forgettable champions, and looks a bit out-of-place in League), as it was focused around a similar principle.


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Zahaele

Member

02-07-2013

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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Hmm, I'd have to disagree. She was tailored to counter the "everyone is a ranged carry" meta, and her abilities point to that. If you're arguing towards the "good when the odds are against her" coherence, only her wonky slow/stun work towards that (as her innate and ult only encourage her to teamfight, and her true damage/heal on-hit only serve to grant her increased damage output and sustain).

And yes--like you said, thematically, any element of "good when the going gets tough" is completely absent from her visual design (ie. you wouldn't be able to tell that this is what she's all about just by looking at her--which is bad for readability and well below the bar that has been set for champion), so if it were to be incorporated 100%, it would have to be on a completely different champion.

On top of that, it's a fairly vague and abstract theme, and not really something that the player can control--would someone, as an Irelia player, try to constantly put themselves in a bad spot so they can turn tides that didn't necessarily have to be turned before Irelia decided to throw every principle of good play out the window? How would you counterplay this? Just avoid having an advantage over her?

That's part of why I scrapped the Karma redesign (on top of her visual design lacking any sort of characteristic/iconic "sticking power"--easily one of the most forgettable champions, and looks a bit out-of-place in League), as it was focused around a similar principle.
All right, I can get what you're saying here about Irelia, when you explain it. Being stronger when the odds are against her might have been the idea that Riot might have had in mind, but it was... not executed very well, which makes sense, given the reasons you've stated.

I might argue that Karma has a definite theme or idea in both her visuals and kit (her clothes are very reminiscent of the taiji/yin-yang symbol, her Q is offensive but gains a defensive use with mantra while her E is defensive but gains an offensive use with mantra, and her W is both bad for enemies (slows them, damages them if they are in beam) and beneficial for allies (haste)). Now, I'm not really sure how Karma's passive fits in, nor do I know what counterplay she would have, but it seems as if she has a definite theme with her (although you've probably noticed it, it just didn't seem like you did). Unfortunately, it seems as if that's the main thing going for Karma.

Edit: Just want to say right here that I'm not whining about you scrapping redesigns of certain characters, I'm honestly just curious.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

02-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zahaele View Post
All right, I can get what you're saying here about Irelia, when you explain it. Being stronger when the odds are against her might have been the idea that Riot might have had in mind, but it was... not executed very well, which makes sense, given the reasons you've stated.

I might argue that Karma has a definite theme or idea in both her visuals and kit (her clothes are very reminiscent of the taiji/yin-yang symbol, her Q is offensive but gains a defensive use with mantra while her E is defensive but gains an offensive use with mantra, and her W is both bad for enemies (slows them, damages them if they are in beam) and beneficial for allies (haste)). Now, I'm not really sure how Karma's passive fits in, nor do I know what counterplay she would have, but it seems as if she has a definite theme with her. Unfortunately, it seems as if that's the main thing going for Karma.
She certainly had an undertone of that "Yin-Yang" sort of duality (although her visual design is very "grey" and hazy), but it wasn't handled very well and tends to be tricky to incorporate into a character properly--and even trickier to incorporate it into a kit without simply relying on bare-bones mechanics (ie. damage/heal, damage/shield, slow/haste). It's also vague, like what might've been underlying Irelia, which isn't necessarily a good trait for a theme to have in the context of League--their primary function is to allow players (and spectators!) to look at a champion and be able to go "yeah, I have an idea of how this guy would work and what they might be capable of," and the taiji/that sort of duality doesn't do terribly much in that case.

Doesn't mean it's a bad thing or that Karma is an awful, awful character--it's just not the kind of stuff that's fit for League! You gotta be concise, defined, and impactful due to the nature of LoL as a game and of the nature of champions and their kits, and if a champion/theme doesn't excel in all three of those areas, it's just holding a spot that could've gone to a more fitting champion (since Riot can't just churn out champions forever--keep in mind that new players are constantly picking the game up and that it wouldn't be good news if that stopped, so a happy medium between "lots of good content" and "not enough content to overwhelm new players" is paramount)!

Thanks for your input, though--I'm glad you're thinking critically about this!

EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zahaele View Post
Edit: Just want to say right here that I'm not whining about you scrapping redesigns of certain characters, I'm honestly just curious.
No worries! If you have honest questions, then I'm here to answer them. : )


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

02-08-2013

Currently working on the placeholders for Evelynn's and Orianna's kits! Very little has been changed (the ultimate and the innate, respectively)--the biggest change is a move to a new champion that better encompasses the playstyles the kits create.

I've been travelling all day, so you guys can expect them tomorrow!


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toastedprimerib

Member

02-09-2013

I'm confused..

Why is he the Best DiIdo I mean there are thousands of different diIdos around the world of different shapes, sizes, textures and color. What makes this diIdo so special?


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

02-10-2013

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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Updated Redesign section !

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Currently working on the placeholders for Evelynn's and Orianna's kits! Very little has been changed (the ultimate and the innate, respectively)--the biggest change is a move to a new champion that better encompasses the playstyles the kits create.

I've been travelling all day, so you guys can expect them tomorrow!


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Zahaele

Member

02-11-2013

Itemsguy, have you ever played DotA 2 or HoN?

The main reason why I say that is because looking at some of your reworks, you should probably see the kits of HoN's Monkey King and DotA 2's Spectre. I think you'd be pleasantly surprised


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

02-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zahaele View Post
Itemsguy, have you ever played DotA 2 or HoN?

The main reason why I say that is because looking at some of your reworks, you should probably see the kits of HoN's Monkey King and DotA 2's Spectre. I think you'd be pleasantly surprised
Actually, I've given every hero a test run--if Spectre is the one I'm thinking of, that's actually where I got the idea for Nocturne's Q effect! Monkey King, I think, was where I got Heavenly Vault. If something's good, I'mma take it! How many HoN/DotA abilities can you find in the redesigns and original champs?

Another hero I'm satisfied with is Bat Rider--might include a similar kit in the future, it's one of the shining examples DotA/2 has to offer!


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

02-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zahaele View Post
Itemsguy, have you ever played DotA 2 or HoN?

The main reason why I say that is because looking at some of your reworks, you should probably see the kits of HoN's Monkey King and DotA 2's Spectre. I think you'd be pleasantly surprised
As said ItemsGuy has played every hero - I've played DotA a bit but I'm terrible at it, I do feel I can give a solid opinion about the game however.

Note that I have seen every 'Hero Preview' on DotACinema - I really felt like checking them out to see every character in that game.

A lot are a mess, a lot are okay or have a few abilities that make sense and are extremely awesome.