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Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? @Morello @Feralpony @IronStylus @Xypherous

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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
BrokenSteele:
You gotta understand the people you're addressing heybueng. These people are constantly thinking about how an existing champion could be better and how new ones can bring a better experience to the game. They're always thinking of their ideas and running through them on paper or in their head over and over making sure it can stand up to scrutiny.
When someone such as yourself bring up valid yet simple points that they've already come across you're going to be put down for not doing your research on something they've been trying to fix themselves or already have. You're a player in the game and a forum dweller and as such have the unique position of critic in the eyes of the Riot team. The people here such as Morello and Itemsguy are players AND designers. When they make something for LoL they design AND play it so if it's awesome they know. if it's bad they know, and if it needs work they know and hence why redesigns are always happening.

So in short, don't post with a TL: DR mentality much less actually say you have it because no one will take you seriously unless you have some serious experience in your back pocket.


Thank you (for all of this, but especially the part in bold--one of the first things I do after finishing a redesign is try to figure out in which situations it would be problematic, and if those situations line up with the context of LoL/LoL 2, I fix it!), and I'm sorry he downvoted you (as these kind of people tend to do). Fixed!

Quote:
BrokenSteele:
Didn't mean to write that last post but I couldn't help but it irritated me. Anyway onto what I wanted to say.



I can't totally agree with this statement. Although it's a fundamental truth that you'll get better the more you play the game it isn't true that doing your Homework on a champion can help you understand that champion better in order to play them more effectively. An example of this is Malzahar's voidlings. They stack bonus AD and benefit from armor penetration. This is something that isn't stated in his passive, but is shown if you look up his wiki or even just browse the right forums.


I'd have to disagree here--any time you spend researching outside of the game is time you aren't spending actually playing the game! If a game deliberately leaves important/useful information outside of a player's immediate grasp, then it's strong-arming that player out of the game to get better at the game it's strong-arming them out of!

I understand that getting some sort of edge over your opponent is enjoyable for you, but what does that mean for the other players? Hell, what does it mean for spectators?

I try to have everyone's best interests in mind, but if somebody wants something that has inherently negative effects on others that want to enjoy the game (in this case, getting in between "player" and "a solid understanding of the game&quot, I'm afraid I can't entertain that desire.

Like I said--if you want to get an advantage in the game, you should do it by playing the game! Learning more about what situations you handle yourself well in as certain champions (and how to create these situations), getting a better feel for judging fights before you start them--in LoL 2's case, knowing everyone's defined (and clear as day) strengths and weaknesses, and knowing how to handle them.

If you want to do studying outside of the game, do it in a way that is still relevant to the game! Watch the pros play, analyze what they do, and perhaps bring that into practice in-game! There are many things that can and should decide whether you win or lose a game of League, but memorizing arbitrary tidbits shouldn't be one of them.

I hope I've made this clear! Like I said, I understand that this is where you find some joy, but it's not necessarily good game design and there are better ways to get that competitive edge (ie. gaining experience in playing the game and learning from the pros).

EDIT:

Also, ever since I discovered the DevTracker a few days back, I've been watching it like a hawk! It's good to know what the Rioters are up to, but it eats away at me a little every time an issue is brought up that LoL 2 would fix! For example, Morello's recent conversation about Vladimir--with his redesign, I keep most of what people enjoy about him (sans pool and ult), and make it not problematic! Redesign!Vlad is still very "Vlad" (perhaps even moreso)--but with more decision-making density, counterplay, and mechanical depth!


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Clearest

Member

02-05-2013

Good points on theming, OP. I agree some movesets are somewhat disjointed and don't really make sense in related to the character. The idea of having champions you are really keen on because of the character design AND moveset is something really important.

While this is just my opinion, I feel one other area Riot could do better with defining and differentiating champions is the lore (I hate the term lore due to the implications but i'm using for familiarity). It's one of the the best ways to increase a player's familiarity with a champion and also encourage rivalries. Active developments and 'events' on the lore front are an easy way to create hype too.

I feel they've actively shelved this to focus on pro gaming developments which is a bit of a shame as there's no reason they can't co-exist.

While some people say that it's just ignored, you only have to look at an MMO like WoW to see that story development, especially when involving player 'factions' and the characters within them, does generate discussion.

However, many of the new champions have no true flavour to them which is increasingly an issue as the champion count accelerates past 100.

I have ideas on this front but I'll leave it at that as it's not really related to your thread.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

02-06-2013

Quote:
Clearest:
Good points on theming, OP. I agree some movesets are somewhat disjointed and don't really make sense in related to the character. The idea of having champions you are really keen on because of the character design AND moveset is something really important.

While this is just my opinion, I feel one other area Riot could do better with defining and differentiating champions is the lore (I hate the term lore due to the implications but i'm using for familiarity). It's one of the the best ways to increase a player's familiarity with a champion and also encourage rivalries. Active developments and 'events' on the lore front are an easy way to create hype too.

I feel they've actively shelved this to focus on pro gaming developments which is a bit of a shame as there's no reason they can't co-exist.

While some people say that it's just ignored, you only have to look at an MMO like WoW to see that story development, especially when involving player 'factions' and the characters within them, does generate discussion.

However, many of the new champions have no true flavour to them which is increasingly an issue as the champion count accelerates past 100.

I have ideas on this front but I'll leave it at that as it's not really related to your thread.


Lore is certainly something worth fighting for! It allows the game to live on within the players even after they've closed out of the client, and even stepped away from the computer. It's, honestly, what can really separate LoL from pretty much every other competitive game and allow it to rise to the top qualitatively and quantitatively--in other words, if LoL is neck-and-neck with other games in terms of the competitive scene but also has the narrative depth and rich universe that's usually attributed to "regular"/non-competitive games, then LoL trumps them!

It helps broaden the audience too, and a greater focus on it would allow LoL to be a truly exceptional AAA game AND a top-notch eSport. I think the eSport aspect is taking priority for Riot right now, but to be honest, I think in the long run that a greater focus on (well-constructed and utilized!) narrative elements in the vein of the JoJ and other such things would help draw more players in and allow them to enjoy LoL even after the PvP becomes less appealing to them, and also what could allow it to really shine as not only a game, but a multimedia experience (which is one of the main reasons series like Pokemon are as popular as they are--even if you don't like the video games or the card game, you still have an entire world to immerse yourself in and occupy yourself with!).

Lore isn't necessarily my specialty, but I tried to bring it to life in gameplay as well--playing each champion is a narrative experience in and of itself (Rengar hunting champions for trophies, redesign!Zyra taking over the map with her plants, etc.)--and one of the things I've focused on is the relationships in between champions as well. A match-up top of Nasus vs. Renekton becomes an incredibly intense battle--as one's area of effectiveness contradicts the other (Nasus being able to play patiently, Renekton being able to apply constant aggression), creating a tug-of-war of sorts between the two. The same stays true for Leona and Diana--one's strength is the other's weakness, so competition between the two becomes that much more dynamic and charged!

I think these redesigns would certainly allow (well-written!) lore to truly become alluring to the players--after all, if you find a champion you truly love and can connect to from playstyle to character to theming (which are really all one and the same), wouldn't you want to know a little more about them?

One of the things I've tried to do is make champions that people can truly fall in love with--there's a flavor for everyone, so it doesn't feel like things are watered down for the majority (like Zyra and her generally ignorable plants)--like Morello said in the Champion Retrospective:

"But what we really want to do - is create a good variety of champions, so that every player has a few to several champions that they are absolutely stoked about - instead of having like a whole slew of champions that people are not interested in and don't really buy into."

This is something that I feel that Riot hasn't necessarily been able to deliver on with a number of their older champions (and I certainly don't blame them--LoL was a young game, and the experience Riot has gained over the years really shows in their newer champions that aren't Nami)--with these redesigns, I try to retroactively apply this exact level of experience and the standards they hold themselves to today! I've seen Morello say time and time again that if he were to design older champions today, they'd be different--I want to make this a reality, so every champion can be the best they can be!


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OJFrost

Senior Member

02-06-2013

I really liked a lot of the champion redesigns I read through. I do have to nitpick one thing though.

I'm not quite sure how Veigar's stun doesn't fit his kit. Thematically, I think that any Master of Evil probably has some sort of trap that he wants his enemies to walk into. In fact, if a 'Master of Evil' didn't have a trap (or some sort of diabolical plot) for the hero to get caught in then I'd be a little bummed. It's what makes a brilliant nemesis/villain. I feel that it also offers decent counterplay (becareful of the range on it, don't walk into the edges of it). I'm actually not sure why it needed to be removed, aside from it not fitting the rest of his tweeked kit.

Other than that I'm a big fan of your work. I'd love to see you on the development team, at least as a counter for some of the more 'safe/laid back' developers.

Edit: Sorry, meant to ask for a bit more in depth explanation of his stun being changed rather than just make a pointless statement.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

02-06-2013

Quote:
ghostkiller2013:
I really liked a lot of the champion redesigns I read through. I do have to nitpick one thing though.

I'm not quite sure how Veigar's stun doesn't fit his kit. Thematically, I think that any Master of Evil probably has some sort of trap that he wants his enemies to walk into. In fact, if a 'Master of Evil' didn't have a trap (or some sort of diabolical plot) for the hero to get caught in then I'd be a little bummed. It's what makes a brilliant nemesis/villain. I feel that it also offers decent counterplay (becareful of the range on it, don't walk into the edges of it). I'm actually not sure why it needed to be removed, aside from it not fitting the rest of his tweeked kit.


It's extremely out of place, doesn't make sense in terms of form, function, or context, and in terms of his kit, only exists so he can land his AoE. Also, a master of evil has no requirement of "tricks" in terms of traps and such--it's only required that they be evil, which Veigar is!

However, the focus of his kit isn't necessarily about being evil (since that's not really something you can capture in a kit, due to its inherent involvement with a moral code that can't really be represented through mechanics), but rather that feeling of starting off small and "clamoring for power"--getting your hands on every scrap of magic as you can while your opponents find your power laughable, and then coming back later in the game and instagibbing your opponents--especially the other so-called mages! Playing him revolves around scrambling for that magic power, and playing against him requires that you don't take chances with him and bully him at every opportunity--as left to his own devices, he will more than readily rise to power and dominate the game with an iron gauntlet.

Quote:
Other than that I'm a big fan of your work. I'd love to see you on the development team, at least as a counter for some of the more 'safe/laid back' developers.

Edit: Sorry, meant to ask for a bit more in depth explanation of his stun being changed rather than just make a pointless statement.


I'm extremely flattered! I'm sorry Veigar's stun wouldn't make it over (it's a weird mechanic in general--in terms of play, it's fairly wonky, and doesn't seem to serve a purpose other than "crowd control people in this specific ring-shaped area&quot, but I hope that all these other crazy cool mechanics can more than make that up for you. And hey! Now that Veigar doesn't have that weird stun, he has room for a more powerful AoE and if left to his own device, can make mana problems a thing of the past and fare better against harass! By removing a "not very Veigar" part of his kit, I made him more "Veigar"--I hope this makes sense!

But yeah, one thing that really needs to take place is a more fearless attitude in the development team (which is showing itself in tints and shades with such mechanics as Thresh's lantern--which isn't complicated at all; it makes immediate sense, fits with his kit/role/theme, and creates for tons of awesome possibilities which only serve to make the game more dynamic)! I think what some of the more conservative devs fear is the game devolving into the "everyone is OP so nobody is" design philosophy of DotA/2 (or more accurately, their predecessor)--but that is far from the case with the changes I've prescribed. Rather, I've only served to make the game more dynamic! Champions have potential to be much stronger and much weaker, depending on how well they're played,meaning that due to the "situational power" I employ, when you're play well, you really feel it--and it feels awesome!

Are there any redesigns in particular that you think you'd love? Also, what do you think you'd like about them?

Any champions you think you'd try in LoL 2 but would never consider picking up in current LoL?

EDIT:

I just spoke to a player on the LoL client, about possible changes to Syndra to bring her up to par with the newer/redesigned champions.

I can't promise anything--but you guys might be seeing a Syndra redesign in the (near) future!


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BrokenSteele

Member

02-07-2013

Quote:
ItemsGuy:
Lore is certainly something worth fighting for! It allows the game to live on within the players even after they've closed out of the client, and even stepped away from the computer. It's, honestly, what can really separate LoL from pretty much every other competitive game and allow it to rise to the top qualitatively and quantitatively--in other words, if LoL is neck-and-neck with other games in terms of the competitive scene but also has the narrative depth and rich universe that's usually attributed to "regular"/non-competitive games, then LoL trumps them!


I gotta say I love the Lore in LoL as well but its all over the place. My beef is with that newspaper type of story telling that you can find when logged into the client. I loved reading the stories of every single champ to find out more about their back story and when I found out there was a source that interconnected all of that I was SOOO happy...at first. Could not read past the first front page article in all honesty.

I would love to see a redone version of this story-telling. Something much more interesting and easier to follow than what's available now. League of Legends has the perfect cast to just go with episodes rather than a singular story-line that connects all of the champs and it would be better that way as well since it can go hand in hand with introducing new champions.

Although this is probably way out there and not something to be considered. I think making the old stories into animated episodes would bring a lot more attention to the game overall. I personally would love to see how Swain rose to power with Darius's help or Ashe and Tryndamere's road to being King and Queen or even a little peek to the mystery as to why Fiddlesticks guard's the room in the corner of the Institute of War.


EDIT: I should have just put this in the lore section rather than get emotionally pumped over one post...


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

02-07-2013

Quote:
BrokenSteele:
I gotta say I love the Lore in LoL as well but its all over the place. My beef is with that newspaper type of story telling that you can find when logged into the client. I loved reading the stories of every single champ to find out more about their back story and when I found out there was a source that interconnected all of that I was SOOO happy...at first. Could not read past the first front page article in all honesty.

I would love to see a redone version of this story-telling. Something much more interesting and easier to follow than what's available now. League of Legends has the perfect cast to just go with episodes rather than a singular story-line that connects all of the champs and it would be better that way as well since it can go hand in hand with introducing new champions.

Although this is probably way out there and not something to be considered. I think making the old stories into animated episodes would bring a lot more attention to the game overall. I personally would love to see how Swain rose to power with Darius's help or Ashe and Tryndamere's road to being King and Queen or even a little peek to the mystery as to why Fiddlesticks guard's the room in the corner of the Institute of War.


EDIT: I should have just put this in the lore section rather than get emotionally pumped over one post...


No, no, don't worry--players getting emotionally pumped about their game is a good thing!

It's little things like this that keep me fighting! Trust me, if/when I start working for Riot (let's go with "when"--even if Riot decides I'm not an A+ candidate the first time, I'm just going to hone my skills and develop others until I'm the best guy for the job!), I'm certainly going to make sure that LoL is a game people can be passionate about.

But as a member of the game design team, there would only be so much I could do! It's up to people like you who want to see a change or improvement to become awesome and fight to become the change they want to see--there are even a handful of people that have added me on the LoL client after reading this thread, that I have been trying to inspire to write and write as much as they can, because they too want to see a resurgence within the lore team.

In all honesty, now is the time for the best of the best to rise to the top--we need revolutions in all fields to wake up and decide "I'm going to help make LoL the best it can be, and I'm not going to stop pushing and fighting until it gets there!" Whether that be lore, or content design, or art, any of the many things that have come together to create this game!

It's really all about the players, here. If you know what you want and truly believe it will be for the best, then wake up every morning and work until it happens, and then keep on working to keep it alive. That's the beauty of a player-focused company and a constantly evolving game!


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

02-07-2013

UPDATE:

Figured out the Syndra redesign, 80% done with the Lux redesign.

Will post after class (ie. in an hour)!


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

02-07-2013

Quote:
ItemsGuy:
UPDATE:

Figured out the Syndra redesign, 80% done with the Lux redesign.

Will post after class (ie. in an hour)!


Derp, I'm so excited.

EDIT: Concerning the audio post thingy - that sh*ts hard.


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Zahaele

Member

02-07-2013

Quote:
ItemsGuy:
Syndra redesign is up! (http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2013/02/champion-redesign-syndra-dark-sovereign.html)

Gonna head off to lunch and try to figure out the finishing touches on Lux. Feel free to update whenever, Peri!



Also, although you might not necessarily agree with me, I think Irelia DOES, in fact, have a theme to work with. Considering Irelia's backstory, the battle she was in involves her coming back "from the brink of death" to slay down the enemy Noxians. Look at her passive; it works better the more enemies are near her. Her E is stronger when she's at a lower health % than her target. Imagine you were in a toplane, you and your laning opponent are both at around 1/3 or 1/2 hp, whatever it may be. Your opponent initiates a trade with you and gets you low. Suddenly, your blades fight back, stunning him. They start to glow and suddenly your attacks deal noticably more damage and start healing you more. You use your ultimate on the creep wave and your opponent, keeping you alive despite him trying to auto you death. You end up coming out on top thanks to the stun on your E and your ability to start healing a lot more when you need to. A similar thing could happen in a teamfight when you jump on their carry, and yet even though you are outnumbered and there are people who want you away from their Kog'Maw you still get through their mass CC because of how your passive is.

Irelia's theme, I think, is about being more powerful when the odds are against her. Now, it's probably not represented very well, granted, but I think that's what Riot was trying to get at.