Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? @Morello @Feralpony @IronStylus @Xypherous

First Riot Post
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Biohazard785

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Junior Member

01-30-2013

@ItemsGuy I feel your approach starting this thread had good intention but you got way to carried way with the remakes, readability, counter play, and theme. First of all readability is not an issue no matter how readable you make abilities in the end there just particle effects and new players are going to be confused this game has a large learning curve and people accept that. I agree that some champs have theme issues (eg. sion and shen) but you take it way to far trying to justify every little detail and ability.I understand that proper theme can make the game better but to much can be a bad thing especially for a moba type game. Also i think your take on counter play is what riot was trying to get rid of hard champion counters like in Dota it is not fun it takes away from skill and and being able to outplay your opponent.

As far as your remakes go on some of them you talk about change on champions like Renekton, Warwick, or Ryze you change one ability to that resembles the original one and somehow that makes them better fit there theme and play style but in reality it had no effect. And some of your remakes just bad in terms of theme and mechanics such as Yorick he's a gravedigger he puts bodies in the ground not raises them hes not a necromancer his theme doesn't really make sense but you made it worse and the mechanics are really bad you have made him the worst champion in the league a 3 second channel on a basic ability try using that in lane and what happens when you die and are trying to defend the your base and have no graves Yorick can do nothing. That's the problem with being to reliant on a stationary object like Zyra's plants she has to have those plants or she's useless which is why she was not designed like that in the first place. You also wanted to make Hecarim more of a minotaur but hes a centaur and once again you changed nothing you said you wanted to get rid of q mashing but all you did was add a passive to it. Veigar is a magician he uses MAGIC there for not all of his abilities need to make complete sense. And some of the decisions for cc on characters like Veigar or Rammus is because they need it to be a decent champ. And Brand is fine he burns stuff. I admit I did not read all of the remakes but I read a majority and didn't think there was much change on some champions and too much on others.

When it comes down to it league of legends is based on the game play, mechanics, and balancing so there has to be decisions based on other things like mechanics and how summoners rift, dominion, and twisted treeline are played its not easy to balance three maps on every champion. And you are still a person how has not even graduated yet and you talk like you know better then the developers. You have no idea whats its like to build a champ ground up and make then work well and get balancing right I do agree some of your points are good but taken way to far especially the with nit picking. I do understand that non of these changes are made for league but they just don't work in the moba type game.

PS. DEMACIA


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biohazard785 View Post
First of all readability is not an issue no matter how readable you make abilities in the end there just particle effects
Wrong. Readability is extremely important for such a complicated and large game like League, if you can help players by improving on this readability, it's for the best of everyone.

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new players are going to be confused this game has a large learning curve and people accept that.
Wrong. New players are mostly confused by the worse readable designs (as you mention Sion and Shen) - you can't get rid of a learning curve, you can get rid of burden of knowledge.

Burden of Knowledge is the burden you put on people for no good reason, it's complexity for the sake of complexity; it is needlessly added and isn't nessecary.

This screws over the accesability and stability of a game - you want to avoid this at all costs.

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I agree that some champs have theme issues (eg. sion and shen) but you take it way to far trying to justify every little detail and ability.
How is this bad ? In current League it might be a lot work and unnessecary for them to do so - but if they'd every make a sequel of League, better to do everything perfect right from the start, right ?

Just because you feel he is nitpicking too much doesn't mean he is doing too much.

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I understand that proper theme can make the game better but to much can be a bad thing especially for a moba type game.
Morello has said countless of times in this thread that he liked the idea of 'starting over with his team' and applying the new philosophy he has, the philosophy that he is applying to champion design right now; better theming, more readability. He has used Vayne, Draven, Vi, (Thresh?) as examples, if anything, he's going to do what we have done with all these Redesigns to future champions.

I can't really tell why you have said this, there are champions in League that 'fit our criteria' and even Morello has mentioned and acknowledged them as good designs. So right now, if a few characters are good; themewise, readability, counterplay.. Why can't all champions be like this ?

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Also i think your take on counter play is what riot was trying to get rid of hard champion counters like in Dota it is not fun it takes away from skill and and being able to outplay your opponent.
This is the only valid argument you could give us basically - because we do drag powerlevels of champions over all to a higher/more powerful state than the current state o champions.

This is pretty much a discussion that would have to take place between ItemsGuy and Morello/the design team I'm afraid, right now they are sacrificing a lot of cool mechanics and individual fun for a game where every character feels stale and similar to eachother.

Regardless of wether 'hardcounters' or 'match decided in champion select' is good or not - it's a fact they are not making champions as awesome as they could be because their previous philosophy has watered down the powerlevel and awesomeness all of these champions could have.

See Redesign Nami for example, everything she does makes sense and fits theme, is readable and provides counterplay, yet on top of that she is able to pull of some devastating stuff as a support.

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As far as your remakes go on some of them you talk about change on champions like Renekton, Warwick, or Ryze you change one ability to that resembles the original one and somehow that makes them better fit there theme and play style but in reality it had no effect.
Warwick gets to run more like a werewolf - what's bad about this ?

Renekton is a more vague/abstract theme in the first place - ItemsGuy has just pushed this further and made him more of a full aggressive Butcher.

Ryze is less about placing your head on your keyboard and rolling over it - could you explain in more detail ?

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And some of your remakes just bad in terms of theme and mechanics such as Yorick he's a gravedigger he puts bodies in the ground not raises them hes not a necromancer his theme doesn't really make sense
Gravedigger, Necromancer, it's all pretty related with eachother, he looks like a zombie himself - what's wrong with this ?

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but you made it worse and the mechanics are really bad you have made him the worst champion in the league a 3 second channel on a basic ability try using that in lane and what happens when you die and are trying to defend the your base and have no graves Yorick can do nothing.
You aren't going to plant graves in your lane, you place them strategically at choke points or behind towers or near your base.
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That's the problem with being to reliant on a stationary object like Zyra's plants she has to have those plants or she's useless which is why she was not designed like that in the first place.
Defined strengths as weaknesses, it's way more strategic and has more depth to it rather than 'Zyra the Teamfighting Mage', Morello has said in this thread that he finds Zyra a mistake, he would've liked to drag her theme/concept way further compared to how she turned out to be - compared to how she is currently.

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You also wanted to make Hecarim more of a minotaur but hes a centaur and once again you changed nothing you said you wanted to get rid of q mashing but all you did was add a passive to it.
ItemsGuy should answer this.

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Veigar is a magician he uses MAGIC there for not all of his abilities need to make complete sense.
Except it waters down the expierence of the ultimate 'anti mage' because right now he is no more than a dude that skills on Q and drops down abilities on his enemies - ItemsGuy took 'evil guy being underestimated but screwing people afterwards' concept and dragged it way further.

With the Redesign he'll still be using magic, so it's still magic, that doesn't mean it doesn't make more sense, because it does.

Right now he has his stun ability slapped onto him just for the sake of having a stun - it's a misplaced and a misthemed ability and I'm pretty sure Riot would get rid of this anyday if they got to Rework Veigar - take a look at all the Red posts here, dude.

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And some of the decisions for cc on characters like Veigar or Rammus is because they need it to be a decent champ.
Rammus has his taunt because he needs to draw aggro - if you can draw this aggro by adding mechanincs/abilities that actually do match theme and do make sense and provide more counterplay along the way, why is that bad ? If he gets to do the same job while being more readable and feeling more 'Armordillo' like while being less 'anti-fun' to teammates, I don't really see a reason why not to implement these changes.

Sidenote: Veigar is still an extremely good champion with his Redesign, if anything, ItemsGuy wanted to make every champion viable.

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And Brand is fine he burns stuff.
Except Morello has said in this thread that if he would rework him - they'd make him more 'burnlike'.

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I admit I did not read all of the remakes but I read a majority and didn't think there was much change on some champions and too much on others.
Depends on the champion. Olaf was a nitpick and his main problem was counterplay, there is nothing you can do to a ghost ulting Olaf currently, ItemsGuy dragged this concept of a 'Berserker' even further and made it more 'berserkerlike' while providing more counterplay for the enemy team.

Other champions are more of a mess however, wether this had to do with theming, readability, counterplay or depth depends on the current design and is even explained beneath every Redesign hotlink. Malphite for example; little depth, weird theming, weird readability, poor counterplay, ItemsGuy dragged this further.

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When it comes down to it league of legends is based on the game play, mechanics, and balancing so there has to be decisions based on other things like mechanics and how summoners rift, dominion, and twisted treeline are played its not easy to balance three maps on every champion.
This also counts for current League - SR will always be the main map.

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And you are still a person how has not even graduated yet and you talk like you know better then the developers.
Except we've got a confirmation that Riot/Morello is actually using 'our current philosophy' aswell. Just because he hasn't graduated doesn't mean we have no point, it doesn't mean our opinion or views have less value. Our OP is well-written, provides hotlinks to quotes of people that work at Riot themselves and we've even had Morello here who has agreed on a number of things and over-all has said that he's using a similar philosophy.

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You have no idea whats its like to build a champ ground up and make then work well and get balancing right I do agree some of your points are good but taken way to far especially the with nit picking. I do understand that non of these changes are made for league but they just don't work in the moba type game.
You are talking powerlevel here - these Redesigns have a powerlevel similar to the powerlevel of heroes in DotA, wether DotA heroes are good in terms of theming or readability, they work completely with the amount of devastating stuff they can do.

Is a League champion balanced in DotA ? No, they'll be underpowered. Is a DotA character balanced in League ? No, they'll be overpowered.

It all has to do with powerlevel and the only argument against this would be about the discussion of 'hardcounters' and the importance of champion select, yet we see that on a competitive level of League, champion select is getting more and more important.

Quote:
PS. DEMACIA


I just feel you take things less serious or you find us nitpicking too much just because you are used and dedicated to current League. 'LoL 2' as we see it would be a lot different, but it's far from game breaking.


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Jocular

Senior Member

01-31-2013

@ItemsGuy: I just looked up a picture of some cartoon guy (needed inspiration, like you said) and sketched something out. It's not too bad, though I'm not quite sure it embodies the absorb or the void concept. Tell me what you think.

Attachment 603833

(By the way, it's really hard to draw with a mouse)

Edit: My roommate said it reminded him of Geodude, though strangely enough I've never seen him before. My source material was actually: http://ben10.wikia.com/wiki/The_Worst

Also, I think making his tongue less coporeal and more wispy might afford for smoother "I drain a target" animation. And of course this would be adapted artistically to match what void creatures typically look like (just wanted to get a bare bones of his being mapped out). Who knows? Since you reworked Kog'Maw into Ko...lat'Maw (?) the older version's mouth can be transposed onto this guy.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-31-2013

@Biohazard

I appreciate your concern, but we've answered pretty much all of these "issues" already. Please browse through the thread and read through what we've written, then come back to us if there was anything that wasn't addressed. Two things we haven't gone into detail about:

Hard-Counters: Nonexistent. If you can play your strengths, you win. If you let the enemy play their strengths, they win. Even now, if you just looked at Teemo's strengths and Darius's weaknesses, you'd think that Teemo is a hard-counter to him--but that's not the case. If Teemo keeps his range, he wins, but if Darius can close that gap and keep it closed, he wins. If redesign!Swain can keep redesign!Ez in lane, he wins, but Ez wins if he can turn the situation into one wherein leaving his lane wouldn't be disadvantageous.

Every champ has weaknesses that can be taken advantage of, and every champ has strengths that they will try to capitalize on. There is always something you'd be able to do to decrease your opponent's effectiveness, and if you make the game more about your strengths than their strengths, you win. Also, keep in mind that this is a team game--which brings me to my next point.

Games Won And Lost At champ Select: No different than 5 people instalocking the same role and expecting to win. Will you need to be more mindful at champ select now that strengths and weaknesses have been pushed and defined? Of course! That's not a bad thing--team composition is as much a part of every League match as any, and if you screw up there, you're going to feel it. At champ select, do you try to cover everyone's weaknesses? Build around one champion to accentuate their strengths (Protect the Kog does this currently)? Try to be flexible and pick a few champs that can either spec into roles on the go (ie. Vlad, Viktor) or have a wider option of lanes without sacrificing effectiveness?

There's a strategy to champ select--just like everything else, I'm accentuating that too.

@Jocular-

That's a start! Getting a face on it certainly helped get the ball rolling. Not sure if it necessarily gets "gonna absorb stuff" across, but we can spitball.

EDIT:

Gonna let this thread sink for the time being! Discussion is kind of aimless for now, but I'll try to keep it near the top if I see Morello posting again. We just got one more thread of conversation to resolve before we can put this thread out to pasture!


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Biohazard785

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Junior Member

01-31-2013

@ItemsGuy/BestBilbo I do realize that I came off as a bit of an ******* some points I brought up were unnecessary but I also feel that the way you write things makes it seem champion designing is not that hard and sorry to bring this up again ItemsGuy has no real experience. It just comes down to how it will work in game and if you could pull off theme, mechanics, balancing, and readability to fit together every time it would be great but a little to much to ask for. Most just nitpicking remakes because your going to find problems with everything so nitpicking details is kind of pointless. Overall you did put a lot of work into this thread even though I disagree with some things thanks for the discussion.


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Jocular

Senior Member

01-31-2013

Had some more spare time:

Attachment 604073

Feedback would be appreciated (from anyone!). And any other ideas for a champion that absorbs things?

Edit: Yes... I did get a little carried away once I got the idea of black and white and circles...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Gonna let this thread sink for the time being! Discussion is kind of aimless for now, but I'll try to keep it near the top if I see Morello posting again. We just got one more thread of conversation to resolve before we can put this thread out to pasture!
Does this mean I should stop posting random pictures of theoretical Zsorb?

Ok... I'm not familar with the forums (I found this through a reignofgaming link), but I'm sure I'll find it. Sorry about that.

@ItemsGuy and BestBilbo and anyone else interested: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...2#post34115512


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

02-01-2013

As much as I'd love to continue discussing the finer points of champion creation with you, I think it would be best if we took this to the Player Concepts subforum--if you link me up, we can continue this development over there!

EDIT:

Again, gonna try to let this sink to the bottom until Morello's back on the forums (might not be for a while, since the few days after huge patches tend to be quite busy). If it looks like things have quieted down a bit more over at Riot, I'll see if I can contact him via Twitter and ask him about that question on page 45! Some closure on that convo thread would be great--after that, I'll let this thread do whatever it may, and perhaps update it in 10 days or so!

EDIT: Morello sighting! Quick bump to get this baby back in the air.

@Joc- Gonna have to look at that later, I'm out and about for today.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

02-02-2013

Bump - edited my post on page 45. Will repost this if Morello comes at takes a peak here again.

EDIT: Posted below, Morello !


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

02-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
<insert zip/derp/herpa derpa>
Morello, first of all thanks for all of your input here - there's a lot of stuff however where I'd like to have your opinion on (I'm not the only one). You've said you like this discussion, I think everyone does. Thanks for the sticky, lets go !

Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiBelgarath
I don't think you actually have different ideas of what it should be, or even what is important. The difference is Riot is focusing more on interesting mechanics
You've responded to this and said you have agreed - IMO this is a bit unfair, as it is far from true.

With all of the Redesigns we've tried to capture everything; from counterplay to readability to consistant theming.
Mechanics ? You can come up with so many interesting mechanics while still sticking to theme (having things readable along the way), ItemsGuy tried to wrap all of these important aspects when designing a champion and god there are some really cool and interesting mechanics.

Redesign Zyra's ultimate; plants going out of the ground, migrating to another spot where they'll 'dig in' again. Not only is this extremely readable and fitting, it's unique and an interesting mechanic - IMO.

You've said yourself you've come out with some extremely succesful designs such as Vi, Draven, Thresh, how coul you possibly think you need to sacrifice anything for something else ?

To lay an emphasis here:

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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy
Again, if I could work to make my points as clear as possible--as far as theme and gameplay depth go, they're fine on their own, but prioritizing either can be problematic. Either way, no matter which you prioritize, it will never yield as good a result as if you used them in harmony! Bread alone is flavorless, jam alone is sticky and unpleasant, and peanutbutter sticks to the roof of your mouth--but when you put them all together, you get a delicious sandwich!

Sorry if I'm bogging you down with food metaphors, it's a bad habit.
I hope that's clear for you, now

What happens if you push this design-philosophy ?

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Originally Posted by Mortamor
I support this idea - why? Simple! I play DotA 2.

Now, you might ask why this matters. Well, it's simple, really. I play DotA if I want to go tryhard, I go to League if I want to have a nice, fun game without having to remember OVER NINE THOUSAND things just to play one character. These redesigns would make this so much easier
.
If anything, we are creating more unique mechanics (more or less what Mortamor says yet in DotA he has to 'just memorize' these mechanics as he doesn't have a solid theme or readable goal he can grasp onto) - more unique champions, creating more variety among champions as every character works as an individual and has individual strengths and weaknesses. There have been countless of posts here in this very thread where a lot of people have said 'Yeah when I play Syndra/Zyra she just feels like another generic mage' (You've said you would have liked to push their themes better, concerning Syndra and Zyra).

Pushing our design-philosophy to the fullest, what could possibly happen with League as an E-Sport ?

Small portion of ItemsGuy's application he sent to Riot - to you guys:

'I also hope to eventually make League the best MOBA out there, and beyond that, possibly one of the first full-blown Spectator eSports in the world (Korea notwithstanding--I already know StarCraft is pretty huge over there but it's not readable or dynamic to the point of enthralling people who have never played it)--a huge step for video games as a whole.'

Now I know you would have pushed Zyra more as a Nature Mage if you could do her over, though I'd still like to use her as an example right now. Her R is more or less a large aoe circle nuke with knock-up tied to some nature particles.

I think that some vine-particles whipping up knocking up people doing extremely devastating amounts of damage is less readable than a bunch of plants pulling out of the ground migrating to another spot and the plants doing damage afterwards. This is my opinion, suit yourself : )

The gravedigger spawning his very characteristic zombies, the inventor constantly building his inventions and the angry tree using nature to wreck havoc on the battlefield are just some extremely readable examples of how friendly to the eye League can be, themetically tied to the characters aswell as having extremely cool and unique mechanics.

Now League is very clear - fact, in terms of visuals it's great. League could be even more clear with having champions doing what you expect them to do. 'Full blown spectator eSports' - sounds cool IMO.

This ultimately leaves us to this question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoozleDorf
@ Morello- I would really love to hear your response to one of the major points in the 'Summary of the Summary Summary' section: that is the question of "Saturation".

I first started playing LoL at the Varus patch-- he was my first champion, and still one of my favorites. At the time, I had that 'first time to the big city' wide-eyed and a bit overwhelmed feeling of the largesse of the champion pool. It took many deep breaths to understand that I didn't need to know every champion, ability, matchup and passive to be able to play and enjoy the game.

However, as I played more and more, frustrations definitely emerged because of facing opponents I had no clue about-- didn't know their passive or abilities, and certainly therefor, had no idea how to counter them. With some champions the learning curve was severe (a good thing in this case) such as the example of Vayne ("If I get three rings on me, it hurts. Don't let that happen"). The ability, and its effect on me were obvious and easy to read/respond to. It has taken hundreds of hours of homework to even begin to learn all there is to know about the current roster.
Morello, I'm extremely delighted you either agree or completely understand our points but you do add 'it's just another perspective' or 'it's not our priority' to justify what you are doing currently with the champion delevopment, or to be fair - what you have done in the past. I hope we've managed to change your mind on that now, how champion-design doesn't have to be about prioritizing in one single aspect at the cost of readability or theme (Vi, Draven, Thresh, Vayne are proof of this and are one of the strongest and themetically fitting champions in the game, from visual appearance to playstyle/kit to lore).

I'd really appreciate it if you could check out these Redesigns and read them as if you weren't 'Morello, Lead Champion Designer' that has been working for Riot for years, read them as if you truly believe every champion can themetically fit throughout playstyle and visual appearance, while being extremely readable and providing plenty of counterplay.

I tried to pick out the most solid ones ItemsGuy has made, a few are a bit tricky, I most certainly agree, but I hope these'll do:

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-Nunu, the Yeti Rider.

Nunu, has some issues with readability and theming, yet his depth would be ENTIRELY his problem.
Right now Nunu is no more than a walking (counterjungling) attack speed buff and permaslow-bot.

He has a one kinda big readability issue: His ult is little relevant to him as a character, players are enforced to know and learn this dude has a charging ultimate for the sake of having it - there is not a lot of help players get to help them understand.
Nunu Redesign COMPLETELY fixes everything, Nunu gets to do stuff that is relevant to him as a tiny little annoying bully, being more readable. Willump finally gets to be the Yeti he always wanted to be, adding way more depth to the champion over-all.

The new ultimate of Nunu: Not only extremely readable, relevant and common to people, it's also extremely funny, RIOT PLS !
I'm not sure about your opinion on Nunu, but would he be one of those champions you would like to change if you could (concerning his depth for the most part), if the playerbase wouldn't be upset about it ? I hope you see this is extremely readable and pushed to theme, making Nunu a complete character of his own.

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-Malphite, the Shard of the Monolith.

Malphite is a huge mess in terms of theming, readability, counterplay and depth.

Readability: Magical moving rock that slows you ? Not really readable.

Depth & Counterplay, concerning depth; Malphite R's in and then presses Q, W, E mindlessly after.
Current counterplay ? 'Initiate before this guy does', not a lot you can do here.

Malphite Redesign focuses on being the ultimate walking rock with great force improving on theme, readability and providing more options of counterplay.
All I would want to say here is already mentioned in the explanation.

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-Trundle, the Cursed Troll.

Nitpick Champion, already much of a typical troll.

Redesign Trundle is pretty much the same though especially improves on readability and counterplay. For his ultimate:

Extremely readable and appropriate for his character (his current ult is just some cloud of filth: God knows what that should do – it’s not readable nor does it have counterplay, you are required to read have the tooltip to know what it does currently), with the redesign; a nasty gross troll that jumps on you, that starts to nibble on your head ? Very characteristic and readable while providing more counterplay - I immediately thought of Gollum in LOTR III. LOL.
'

I put Trundle in here not only because I think he themetically fits extremely well (apart from lacking some counterplay and readability concerning his ult) - I hope this will change your mind on the directions you might consider taking in a possible Trundle rework, a lot of people will get mad if you change that Q, W and E, they fit perfectly and are extremely good abilities.

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-Zyra, the Rise of Thorns

Zyra rather is the generic mage with the nature skin than the Ultimate Nature Mage she could have been.

Redesign Zyra - one of my favourite Redesigns - Zyra turns to an organic 'living' & caring mage, she turns the Field of Justice to her own garden. Taking care of your plants and growing them untill you can release them and migrate them back somewhere else into the earth !
This is just ROFLWTFBBQ. Must have.
No need to add anything here.

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-Alistar, the Minotaur.

Current Alistar is quite a mess and is a perfect example of a design that restricts Riot of having other cool abilities in the game.

What's absolutely bull-like ? Imagine an ability called 'Bullrush' - a bull charging up with anger and then dashing forward ? That's very characteristic for a bull !
His kit is very satisfying however though it is little relevant to him as a bull (the random heal in his kit especially)
With this Redesign Alistar gets to be an actual raging bull now, this guy is going to charge after you.
Frankly, this is what makes me sad quite a bit. Your argument 'we don't prioritize on these things' does not only make Alistar less of a bull he could be, it also automatically denies of having characters like this in the game (I really think you'll like this over-all):

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Place-holder champion.

-Edmund, the Abomination.

My first reaction when I red ItemsGuy's Alistar redesign was: 'No no please no, okay maybe Alistar's current kit doesn't really fit him as the ultimate raging bull, but god his current kit is so fun and satisfying !'

As I was in a skype conversation with him, he laughed and sent me a link.
Introducing 'Edmund' the champion with Alistar's current kit that fit him perfectly, readable, appropriate, and most of all: a very fun and fitting appearance + lore making a very cool and unified character. Oh yeah; Edmund would be the first black champion entering the League, people have been asking/wondering for one for quite some time now.

Edmund is an extremely readable character, everything he does makes sense as it fits with his visual appearance.
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Sion, the Undead Champion

This dude is definetely getting a visual rework and most-likely a kitrework aswell, well we have our rework:
Redesign Sion has a kit more appropriate to his theme, having a defined 'Undead warrior' playstyle, improving on counterplay and readability.
Sidenote: The passive of Sion in this Redesign makes A LOT more sense than the champion that currently holds a similar passive - pretty characteristic right, an undead warrior rising from the grave ?
Since you are probably reworking Sion anyway, felt I should pop him in there aswell.

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-Vladimir, the Crimson Reaper.
Current Vladimir has some issues concerning readability and depth, not only is he very straightforward, especially in teamfights (Try to R most people, pop Q and E over and over again until you are forced to W at the right time, pop Q and E over and over again until the fight is won, lost or you being killed). And don't get me started on counterplay, if there's any character that literally screws you over by poking you in lane with high sustain without you being able to do anything about it besides Yorick - it'd be Vladimir.
In terms of readability - for example, his ult is no more than a 'well I just hit this on people and it'll do damage after a while where in the meantime the effected enemies take more damage' - wich is not relevant to him as a mage/bender that uses blood.

Redesign Vladimir makes a 'Blood Bender' more of a 'Blood Bender'. This redesign specifically focuses on playing around with health/blood, you literally bend it out of you for others to help or to do damage to enemies or steal blood from enemies to help yourself. Vladimir turns into a true pumping heart playstyle, constantly flowing around blood from and to you.
Since I've read plenty of comments where you don't like Vladimirs design especially in terms of counterplay, I think you'd like this.

Quote:
-Yorick, the Gravedigger

Morello considers Yorick one of the most problematic/worst designs in LoL history, as he is very dull and even worse; barely provides counterplay.
Yorick Redesign completely lives up to his theme as Gravedigger and necromancer. Not only is Yorick Redesign extremely fun and characteristic - being better themetically (improving on readability aswell), he also provides tons of counterplay; you can do a lot to stop the Gravedigger, this really creates a lot of depth and possibilities Yorick has with his new kit.
And here is where I would disagree about 'us proiritizing' on theming only, especially in this Redesign. This is the only one out of all Redesign I have made, I felt like giving it a shot and came up with this. I'm not entirely sure what you think about these controllable units (eventhough it's pretty much alt commands with alt + S occasionaly, plus an ultimate to help you manage your summons).
Not only do all of the abilities themetically fit and are readable, the counterplay is clear as day, you run over his tombs, you interrupt the channel and you destroy the whisp before it reaches it target.

I have no idea what you could possibly have against this suggested Redesign, if you ask me this would be one of the coolest characters in the game if this would make it live, while being readable, themetically tied to the character and having the counterplay being clear as day.

You say you are taking a new direction concerning champion-design, does this include mechanics like suggested in this Yorick Redesign ? Would love to see your opinion on this. What do you think of all the Redesigns I've suggested you to check out ? Could you explain why ?

Thank you for coming here Morello, but answering all of this would be the best thing you could ever do for all of us here.

That said - ItemsGuy/Ryan has sent his application and should here from you within a week, I really hope that the work we've done here doesn't go unnoticed, especially since you and ItemsGuy seem to agree over a whole lot.

I do not wish to argue over Redesigns that wouldn't really fit or might be tricky in current League or might even be tricky for a possible 'LoL 2' hence I have picked out Redesigns for you to check out that could perfectly fit in League as it currently is. I guess it would be best to discuss the topic of a possible new game with ItemsGuy in person and especially since it won't be anytime soon that League will 'die' or stop champion production.

Oh, and this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryslash

Very good thread and good points, a lot of which are (I presume) very aware by Riot right now.

My opinion is that these "changes" in Champions that we speak of should happen here and now, not at a "League of Legends 2" even if some players will be mad at first. They'll be mad but in the end they will still play and, because of better designed champions, will enjoy the game even more.

Changes will always upset some people and we have plenty of examples right now, in League of Legends. But some changes are for the best. When they're for the best, the result is obviously a game better than before.

If Riot was afraid of making players mad, they wouldn't have done a lot of things they already did.
Wether some of our suggestions would fit a sequel better or not - I hope that some of you realize that some of these Redesigns are not only extremely good, they could fit into League right now. (In my opinion, Malphite probably being one of the most rock-solid ones out there - trust me. Also with all of his FotM he has been through, was considered one of the strongest champions in the game, perhaps due to the 'initiate before this guy does' lack of counterplay ?)

LoL currently or LoL 2 - would you consider reworking older champions to improve on theming, readability and counterplay to continue to polish League once champion production has to stop, Morello ?

PS: With all of the recent releases that have been extremely tied themetically *looks at Vi, Thresh*, I am extremely excited what you have for us in 2013, this year. For me, you are going in to the perfect direction here.

PS2: I know I might be asking a lot of questions here so no doubt this will take some time for you - I just hope you'll answer this as you'll be answering most of the questions asked indirectly. I'd like to point something out concerning my/our opinion on Supports in League of Legends, but I guess this'll come later. Almost done here, for my part.

Still loving the discussion guys, keep this up.

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EDIT: Wrote this a while ago - reposted this for Morello (he might come back here soon enough)


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Sagee Prime

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Senior Member

02-04-2013

I really like your well done post and how it continues to evolve. Good work and I agree with everything you have said for the most part and have really always though about this. Since I'm a Nidalee fan and you know it I'm going to go ahead and take a look at what you got and throw in my thoughts and ideas.