Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? @Morello @Feralpony @IronStylus @Xypherous

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Jocular

Senior Member

01-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Hmm, I want it to be more "reactive" than "active"--a reward for Rammus players for getting enemies to attack them. That's what Rammus is all about!
True. And I understand you want some counterplay. I'll keep brainstorming until I can satisfy both conditions to a reasonable degree.

Edit: First counter thought it to make it synergize with his W or E such that is doubles their effect or somesuch.


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Jocular

Senior Member

01-28-2013

-Rammus stiffens his shell, preparing for an attack and extending the duration of Defensive Ball Curl by X/X/X seconds. The next enemy to directly damage him within 4 seconds breaks their weapon, causing them to deal X% reduced damage for the next 4 seconds. Enemies affected by stacks of Puncture have increased reduction.

What say you? This is so his ult feels less like just another ability and also so that there is a bit more reliance on throwing your ult at the right time and counterplay from the enemy (if they MUST kill you, they'll have someone without the stacks or who doesn't do damage attack you first).


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jocular View Post
-Rammus stiffens his shell, preparing for an attack and extending the duration of Defensive Ball Curl by X/X/X seconds. The next enemy to directly damage him within 4 seconds breaks their weapon, causing them to deal X% reduced damage for the next 4 seconds. Enemies affected by stacks of Puncture have increased reduction.

What say you? This is so his ult feels less like just another ability and also so that there is a bit more reliance on throwing your ult at the right time and counterplay from the enemy (if they MUST kill you, they'll have someone without the stacks or who doesn't do damage attack you first).
Again--the reason I keep Rammus's ult at the powerlevel it's currently at is due to the power of, well, all of his other abilities. It's a tricky balance, here, because if I tweak either side even a little bit, things might get thrown way out of line.

I like what you did with the DBC duration increase, although the Puncture stack thing seems problematic and raises the powerlevel a bit too high.

Two options I'm entertaining right now, if the Rammus ult were to change:

-What you say, with the DBC duration increase (although this might be kind of weird in tandem with the ability, so I'm going to have to think a lot harder on this before I come to a conclusion)

-Simply making it apply to all enemies that attack him take that damage reduction (this is the most straightforward solution--I may keep the ability static for now, as a lot of this stuff will have to be put through actual in-game testing in order to yield the results we require to go further on the matter)

I will always keep these in mind, and am putting them in my notes right now! Rammus is on a very narrow ledge right now, don't want to push him any one way or the other.


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Jocular

Senior Member

01-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
I like what you did with the DBC duration increase, although the Puncture stack thing seems problematic and raises the powerlevel a bit too high.
I'm sure you realize this, but without actual numbers it's really not something an average reader (myself) can see. Adding the puncturing stack to increase damage reduction may require lowering the base reduction on the ult and not stacking additively, but the current ult doesn't really have a lot of depth or interesting/different uses.

And I completely understand trying to keep him from being overpowered, but from my side of things he really could use some synergies; granted the change doesn't have to be related to my suggestions, but I do hope you keep his ult in the back of your mind. Even if you don't buff the power level, adding something could just be what rammus needs.

Maybe it's a cosmetic change? Color? Size? Maybe it slows him down because his shell thickens. Maybe it slows down attackers (like a built in randuins). Unfortunately, I have no idea what you've already been through and all the ideas you've already tossed out the window. These may have been already considered...


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UnbearableBears

Senior Member

01-29-2013

I worked on this idea for a few hours and wanted to know if you (ItemsGuy or BestBilbo) could take a look at my champion concept and provide a constructive criticism of it. Feel free to be harsh if there is something you don't like. If this is not the proper thread for this type of comment let me know and I can post elsewhere/delete this from this thread. Here it goes :P

Wattbear, The Thunder's Roar (a tribute to Volibear)

Resource: Charge Meter. Wattbear uses a unique resource system called a Charge Meter. At the
start of match Wattbear starts off with 0 charge. Movement increases charge at a slower pace than autoattacks but is a great method at mantaining charge. Standing still will cause WattBear's charge to rapidly decrease. Charge Bar is visible to allies and enemies.

Innate: Surging Paws
- Wattbear's auto attacks and movement build up electric charge.

(not sure if I need to add anything to this)


Q: Thunder's Roar
- Wattbear lets out a powerful roar echoing of Thunder that damages and mini-stuns nearby enemies. Minions and monsters are stunned for an additional X seconds.

-Surging Paws Bonus: Charge expended with X seconds of Thunder's Roar activation will lower the cool down of Thunder Roar by X amount

-Wattbear's roar deals X (+X AP) to nearly enemies and stuns them for X seconds.

-Cost: None
-Cooldown: X seconds

(My logic to this skill is a Bear roaring out is pretty iconic and since this is a lightning bear, the roar should sound like Thunder. The logic behind the Surging Paws Bonus is more thunder comes with more lightning)


W: Hypernate
-Wattbear enters into a state of rapid hibernation, restoring Health and increasing Armor and Magic Resist.

-Surging Paws Bonus: This skill will deplete all stored charge. While Wattbear channels, static electricity is released around dealing X magic damage to nearby targets in an aoe surrounding Wattbear. The more charge being released, the higher the damage.

-Wattbear channels, restoring X Health over 5 seconds. While channeling, Wattbear gains X armor and magic resist.

-Cost: Minimum of X charge required to activate this skill
-Cool down- X seconds.

(My logic behind this skill is that it is very readable. Bears are known to hibernate so that part makes sense. Before bears hibernate, they fatten up. In the case of Wattbear, he charges up. While hibernating, Bears lose their fat. Wattbear in turn loses his charge. However Electricity can't just disappear so instead it diffuses into a static field surrounding him)

(NOTE: This has been reappropriated from Master Yi's kit--if you see an ability that is identical to to one from another champion's kit, then I've probably simply relocated it)


E: Electical Claws
-Toggle
-Wattbear channels the power of the storm causing his attacks to blast his targets with lightning that bounces to nearby enemies.

-Surging Paws Bonus: Each bounce while Electrical Claws is active will drain X charge. The higher Wattbear's charge is, the faster WattBear will attack and the more Electrical Claws will bounce up to X times.

-Wattbear channels the storm, causing all basic attacks to deal X (+X AP) additional magic damage. Electrical Claws can bounce up to X times.

-Cost: X charge per attack
-Cool down: None

(My logic behind this skill is pretty obvious. In my pictured design of Wattbear, he will be wearing Gauntlets cackling with lightning, once activated the lightning will surge out from his gauntlets on attack. It also serves as a nice throwback to the Unbearable Volibear)


R: Power Surge
-WattBear transforms into his true form, the spirit bear of storms. Wattbear transforms into a bear made entirely from Electricity.

-While in this form, Wattbear's charge bar is permanently full. Additionally, Wattbear gains X% bonus movement speed and ignores unit collusion.

-Cost: None
-Cooldown: X seconds

(Honestly not sure what to think of this skill. Not sure what to think about it. I would love outside opinion on it)

Electric Bear play style: Wattbear feels fully Bear and fully Electic at the same time. Each skill references both. His q is a bear roar/thunder clab. W is hibernation/electic discharge. E is a bear attacking with claws with a nice addition of lightning. R literally combines the two. In team fights, Wattbear will want to enter into the middle of a fight to get lightning to bounce to as many targets as necessary. Wattbear can use his roar to catch up to targets and then release more lightning to attempt to get another thunder roar out. Once low on Health, Wattbear should only attempt to Hibernate once he knows enemies have used their CC so he can Hypernate peacefully (just like a real bear not wanting to get disrupted while it hibernates). Ideally, he wants to Hypernate near enemy targets so they
get caught in his discharge aoe. Before a team fight, Wattbear should try to pre-charge his Charge Bar. Once the team fight starts, he should use his Q and E until he is about at half charge. At that point, he should activate his ult, putting himself at full charge and Hypernate if necessary, if not, Wattbear should press on the attack, now fully re-charged. Activating his ult in the later half of a team fight will help him not only by re-charging him, but also will give him the opportunity to further chase targets down due to the increased movement speed he receives from his R.

Counterplay: To counter Wattbear, try to keep him in one place. Charge rapidly decreases if Wattbear is not moving. Another big weakness he suffers from is kiting. While he does have a ranged stun, the duration is not that long and he only gains enhanced mobility from his ultimate. Additionally, spreading out will prevent his lighting from bouncing, which not only decreases the damage output on his E but will also prevent him from lowering the cool down on his Q.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnbearableBears View Post
I worked on this idea for a few hours and wanted to know if you (ItemsGuy or BestBilbo) could take a look at my champion concept and provide a constructive criticism of it. Feel free to be harsh if there is something you don't like. If this is not the proper thread for this type of comment let me know and I can post elsewhere/delete this from this thread. Here it goes :P
Give me a break, man. Not only have you been extremely awesome here in this thread, this thread is all about Redesigns. THIS is the place dude, no worries !

Wattbear, The Thunder's Roar (a tribute to Volibear)

Quote:
Resource: Charge Meter. Wattbear uses a unique resource system called a Charge Meter. At the
start of match Wattbear starts off with 0 charge. Movement increases charge at a slower pace than autoattacks but is a great method at mantaining charge. Standing still will cause WattBear's charge to rapidly decrease. Charge Bar is visible to allies and enemies.
Feels a bit like Ezreal Redesign's resource, but maybe they'll feel very much different from eachother. And other than that wouldn't see it as a big problem - I mean, everyone uses mana right now, others have fury and others no mana cost. Plus this current resource fits the 'charging energy' pretty well.

Quote:
Innate: Surging Paws
- Wattbear's auto attacks and movement build up electric charge.

(not sure if I need to add anything to this)


Q: Thunder's Roar
- Wattbear lets out a powerful roar echoing of Thunder that damages and mini-stuns nearby enemies. Minions and monsters are stunned for an additional X seconds.

-Surging Paws Bonus: Charge expended with X seconds of Thunder's Roar activation will lower the cool down of Thunder Roar by X amount

-Wattbear's roar deals X (+X AP) to nearly enemies and stuns them for X seconds.

-Cost: None
-Cooldown: X seconds

(My logic to this skill is a Bear roaring out is pretty iconic and since this is a lightning bear, the roar should sound like Thunder. The logic behind the Surging Paws Bonus is more thunder comes with more lightning)
Seems allright - as long as the ministun really is a ministun like current Riven W.

Quote:
W: Hypernate
-Wattbear enters into a state of rapid hibernation, restoring Health and increasing Armor and Magic Resist.

-Surging Paws Bonus: This skill will deplete all stored charge. While Wattbear channels, static electricity is released around dealing X magic damage to nearby targets in an aoe surrounding Wattbear. The more charge being released, the higher the damage.

-Wattbear channels, restoring X Health over 5 seconds. While channeling, Wattbear gains X armor and magic resist.

-Cost: Minimum of X charge required to activate this skill
-Cool down- X seconds.

(My logic behind this skill is that it is very readable. Bears are known to hibernate so that part makes sense. Before bears hibernate, they fatten up. In the case of Wattbear, he charges up. While hibernating, Bears lose their fat. Wattbear in turn loses his charge. However Electricity can't just disappear so instead it diffuses into a static field surrounding him)

(NOTE: This has been reappropriated from Master Yi's kit--if you see an ability that is identical to to one from another champion's kit, then I've probably simply relocated it)
I love how you found a way to implement Yi's Meditate.

I'll get back to the 'usability'/'viability' of this skill in this current kit later, though. But let's continue !

Quote:
E: Electical Claws
-Toggle
-Wattbear channels the power of the storm causing his attacks to blast his targets with lightning that bounces to nearby enemies.

-Surging Paws Bonus: Each bounce while Electrical Claws is active will drain X charge. The higher Wattbear's charge is, the faster WattBear will attack and the more Electrical Claws will bounce up to X times.

-Wattbear channels the storm, causing all basic attacks to deal X (+X AP) additional magic damage. Electrical Claws can bounce up to X times.

-Cost: X charge per attack
-Cool down: None

(My logic behind this skill is pretty obvious. In my pictured design of Wattbear, he will be wearing Gauntlets cackling with lightning, once activated the lightning will surge out from his gauntlets on attack. It also serves as a nice throwback to the Unbearable Volibear)
Nothing wrong with the ability - what I bolded is a MUST. Before I read this Redesign/rework I feared for you already, I think ItemsGuy will say: 'Bear with lightning, no not readable. Stupid theme'

With what you've suggested, improving on Volibear's visual appearance this might make WAY more sense.

Quote:
R: Power Surge
-WattBear transforms into his true form, the spirit bear of storms. Wattbear transforms into a bear made entirely from Electricity.

-While in this form, Wattbear's charge bar is permanently full. Additionally, Wattbear gains X% bonus movement speed and ignores unit collusion.

-Cost: None
-Cooldown: X seconds

(Honestly not sure what to think of this skill. Not sure what to think about it. I would love outside opinion on it)
I like this, but now I'm going to talk rework W (yours) and Volibear's current Rolling thunder (that's what it's called right.

Yi really only uses or has his W because he dashes in and stands in the middle of the fight - therefore he has his W, your Volibear Rework has no gapcloser apart from the ms bonus on his R.

I suggest you give his R a dash, something like this: Wattbear dashes forward to target location, switching into his Lightning Bear form (bear completely made out of electricity, his true form) upon reaching the location or 'mid flight', when in this state blablabla <insert what you already have on this skill>

Currently, I feel he's way too 'electric' than he is bear. And a charging bear is not only cool, it's pretty characteristic. That's just my piece of the cake though. Suit yourself

PS: I mentioned rolling thunder of Volibear as ItemsGuy thought that that was the only skill worth keeping if he'd make a Volibear Redesign, probably for the same reason I just mentioned; it's cool and characteristic.

------------

@ItemsGuy: I want you to take a serious look at this - I feel this is an abstract theme, but it is no more than Kassadin: wait what Darth Vader looking guy how am I supposed to know what this guy does ?

I feel UnbearableBears has done a great job in terms of turning Volibear some weird mix of watered down lightning and a bear appearance to a full electric bear. I feel this would be one of the more abstract champions in 'League 2' - but I feel it has good potential, also keeping meditate in there to some certain degree. Note how it is a '50-50' design. 50% bear, 50% thunder.

------------

Goodjob dude ! I hope you take a look at my suggestion for his ult, but I like it nonetheless !


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-29-2013

Had a post ready to submit before I took a shower but I accidentally went back a page and now it's gone! Whoops!

Anyway--regardless of what I say about the kit, I'm really glad you took the initiative to come up with a kit for a champion you'd really like to see in League all by yourself, and then posted it here for me to see--even if you were a bit unsure as to whether I'd like it or not! Got to think about this more in-depth while I was in a shower, so I'll split things up into Pros and Cons.

Pros:

+keeping mindful of theming (you tried to make sure that there were no "just particle effects" abilities--all of these find a way to integrate "bear" and "thunder/lightning"; you even kept this in mind when you came up with his resource)

+tried to visualize how he would play (as shown in the "X playstyle" section) and how one would play against him (as shown in the "Counterplay" section)

+kept a concrete role in mind ("magic bruiser"--all of these abilities are about being in relatively close range, whether for Q's AoE, W's discharge, or E's autoattacks)

Cons

-while all of these abilities are certainly a mesh of what's characteristic of bears as well as what's characteristic of thunder/lightning, the kit seems a bit more concerned with trying to fit both aspects into one ability instead of finding areas where "bear" and "thunder/lightning" overlap; "what makes these two things similar?" is a question you want to constantly be asking yourself when you're working with a compound theme (different from a mirrored/split theme, like Nidalee, or from an augmented theme, like "Frost Archer" or "Acid Artillery")

-having some difficult time seeing how all of these abilities would work towards the same goal--mostly because that defined "goal" isn't really something that's been made clear (this is usually the first thing I come up with--a defined goal is the difference between "bland, ineffective bruiser" current Gangplank and "invasive pirate" redesign!Gangplank); is the goal here all about moving around a lot (which really only his Innate focuses on, but not necessarily in a way that meshes with the rest of his kit), disrupting groups of enemies, shrugging off damage, or doing lots of AoE and sticking to targets? (this is where things get tricky!)

That's really just about it! Main concerns I have about this kit are the general lack of "connective tissue" that bring it all together, as well as a sort of unclear vision of what sort of defined way he's going to fill his role (also I have no problem calling him Volibear--even if he's no longer the armored bear people know and love, I think they'd be relieved to see him back through and through!). You did, however, keep a solid mind on "is this characteristic of his theming?" but it seems to be done on an ability-per-ability basis--at worst case scenario, this approach would make a Master Yi, and at best, a Gangplank. Gotta have a sort of overarching "feel" to it, so things can be nice and tight and coherent.

Either way, this certainly got me back to thinking about our ursine friend, and I'm glad you were brave enough to drop your design off in this thread, despite the treatment I've given even champs that Rioters themselves have made! Got me back to thinking of Volibear more as a "storm mage" and less of a "blizzard wizard," which is great because that sort of thunder/lightning dynamic has a lot more overlap with bears, so it'll be easier to work with.

My focus on him will probably be that overlap of explosive strength on both ends--still want him to have a definite feeling of being one of the more "mystic" members of his tribe (the weapon I've had in mind since the beginning was a staff of sorts with a bear claw holding a something-or-other at the end, and it would be more of a bludgeoning weapon than a magic wand or what-have-you), but that "brutal/forceful" twist on that "mage" archetype is paramount in this case.

I can't type much more, gotta go to class! I'll try to sketch up some concept art afterwards, but I've got a lot of work piled up for today. Ciao, and keep the ball rolling!


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-29-2013

^

Thank you for posting this, made sense.


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YamiBelgarath

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Senior Member

01-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Thank you for posting this, made sense.
Just for future reference, Items Guy's post was directly above yours, there was no need to reference the entire thing. I just find it funny because you know that if some random guy had done that (and if this thing was still stickied, I don't know if it would occur naturally) your post would now have 3+ downvotes for that.

Otherwise....

I like the lightning bear, actually. I agree with Items, in that it doesn't really feel like a cohesive theme, though I think that has more to do with Riot than this guy. I'm still not sure what Riot was thinking...."Hmmm, we have a bear. But that isn't exciting enough. Come on guys, what would make a bear more interesting.....I have it, LIGHTNING. Because that TOTALLY makes sense." Hint: no, it really didn't make sense, and it still doesn't. Optimally, they would have been better off making two champions, a bear one and an electric one- oh wait they did. We could have just had Volibear and Kennen, but noooo, we had to have an electric bear...

Seriously though, in LoL 2, I would either rework the lore on Volibear to make his lightning powers make more sense and be more interesting (basically, the lore should make his abilities not seem completely arbitrary and such), or I would remove the lightning and make a fully functional bear kit.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiBelgarath View Post
Just for future reference, Items Guy's post was directly above yours, there was no need to reference the entire thing. I just find it funny because you know that if some random guy had done that (and if this thing was still stickied, I don't know if it would occur naturally) your post would now have 3+ downvotes for that.

Otherwise....

I like the lightning bear, actually. I agree with Items, in that it doesn't really feel like a cohesive theme, though I think that has more to do with Riot than this guy. I'm still not sure what Riot was thinking...."Hmmm, we have a bear. But that isn't exciting enough. Come on guys, what would make a bear more interesting.....I have it, LIGHTNING. Because that TOTALLY makes sense." Hint: no, it really didn't make sense, and it still doesn't. Optimally, they would have been better off making two champions, a bear one and an electric one- oh wait they did. We could have just had Volibear and Kennen, but noooo, we had to have an electric bear...

Seriously though, in LoL 2, I would either rework the lore on Volibear to make his lightning powers make more sense and be more interesting (basically, the lore should make his abilities not seem completely arbitrary and such), or I would remove the lightning and make a fully functional bear kit.
"Bear" on its own doesn't really have much definition or body to it, though, but I still want to make sure that bear-shaped void stays filled.

That being said, I'd really really want to design that "bear mage" (who can take on Volibear's name for damage control, "Volibear is different but at least he's still here ;_;"), especially since it would be a pretty neat twist on both bears and mages. If I can't make it work, though, I'm gonna have to scrap it!

(But yeah--Zileas was against Volibear for the reason that he relied too much on novelty; his abilities are kind of just...there, really, and the parts of his kit that actually are "lightning"--ie. his ult, everything else is just particle effects--don't really make sense on Volibear.)