Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? @Morello @Feralpony @IronStylus @Xypherous

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Felza

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

01-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
This! This this this!

It sounds like a lot of what's being said is "theming is good but you gotta have interesting mechanics"--but the fact of the matter, I incorporate both and use each one to inform and develop the other, falling together in perfect harmony! I'm not making choices or favoring one over the other, I'm designing champions as a whole.
Yes, you did it perfectly but note that Riot has to deal with this one other thing other than Theme and interesting Mechanic, -- Balance.

As stated earlier by others and morello, League Of Legends is a PvP competitive game, it is not a single person RPG. when balance comes into play, at least half of your redesigns will COMPLETELY destroy the balance of the game. You will in the end head towards the DotA style where inorder to maintain both theme and Interest mechanic, they had to up up the balance bar so much it became a burden of knowledge for every player.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralik098 View Post
I don't care if you downvote me and as many others have already noted, you don't care about having a good discussion. All you care about is force feeding people your own ideas and preaching to them why you are gods gift to game design.
The point is - you haven't actually discussed anything yet aswell as all the others you seem to mention that 'agree with you'.

We aren't forcing our ideas on people, we have come up with a philosophy that makes the ultimate champion, yet again confirmed by Morello countless of times and we give suggestions how the champions would have looked if they would fit all of this criteria.

When are you actually going to say something that has value ?

What you are doing right now is just saying 'I don't agree and I give piss-poor arguments why you guys shouldn't do this' as all of your arguments fit the 'if it aint broke don't fix it' mindset. All you have said is 'you dont listen to people' whereas the matter of fact we do and 'you change stuff I like so I'm mad now' not even mentioning why that stuff is good as it is right now. Just because you like stuff doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed, it doesn't mean it shouldn't be better.

It really saddens me to see that you say all of this, there have been countless of people that actually have brought up good discussion here and we very much appreciate that (from NoirTheBlack asking about Ahri Redesign to another dude contributing to the 'Oversaturation' problem to a dude that left a suggestion for Zyra Redesign, wich ItemsGuy looked into, found it a good idea and immediataly implemented it in her Redesign).


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Felza View Post
Yes, you did it perfectly but note that Riot has to deal with this one other thing other than Theme and interesting Mechanic, -- Balance.

As stated earlier by others and morello, League Of Legends is a PvP competitive game, it is not a single person RPG. when balance comes into play, at least half of your redesigns will COMPLETELY destroy the balance of the game. You will in the end head towards the DotA style where inorder to maintain both theme and Interest mechanic, they had to up up the balance bar so much it became a burden of knowledge for every player.
All ItemsGuy is doing is he pushes proportions, he gives champions more power but also more weakness, wich means that if a champion is screwing you over he'd screw you over harder in LoL 2, though if you are beating on a champion's weakness you would beat them harder in LoL 2, punishing the defined weaknesses of the champion.

Just because stuff is more powerful doesn't mean it is broken OP.

'You will in the end head towards the DotA style where inorder to maintain both theme and Interest mechanic, they had to up up the balance bar so much it became a burden of knowledge for every player' - could you explain what happend with DotA, I'm not completely familiar on the design process of that game.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Felza

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

01-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
All ItemsGuy is doing is he pushes proportions, he gives champions more power but also more weakness, wich means that if a champion is screwing you over he'd screw you over harder in LoL 2, though if you are beating on a champion's weakness you would beat them harder in LoL 2, punishing the defined weaknesses of the champion.

Just because stuff is more powerful doesn't mean it is broken OP.

'You will in the end head towards the DotA style where inorder to maintain both theme and Interest mechanic, they had to up up the balance bar so much it became a burden of knowledge for every player' - could you explain what happend with DotA, I'm not completely familiar on the design process of that game.
Dota had a really nice thematic and extremely interesting mechanics in every champion. What happened as they released more of this was that inorder to keep the "Mechanics there" and "balance the game" they buffed everyone to be inline with the new power. So in simple words: If new hero has power level of 150, the power level baseline has to be 150.
As this dragged on, they now are left with a HUGE load of power in the game which requires player to be almost perfect to even compete with the casuals.

The burden of knowledge will slowly increase as the base power line increases. Eventually this will hurt players more than ever because in the end, this is a multiplayer PvP game, not a Single Player RPG, you are here to compete against other players and win/lose not only to enjoy the thematics and the excitement of an exciting mechanic.


NOTE: I am not trying to argue against your ideas, I am merely reminding you(guys) about something that is essential to LoL as a game which you guys might have left out in consideration.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralik098 View Post
They changed Eve for this exact reason, they are considering changing Darius for this reason as well.
They changed Eve because she was being problematic because she lacked counterplay (which we provide with all of our redesigns), and that Morello doesn't want to nerf Darius, but push his strengths and weaknesses even further (which, again, is exactly what we've done with the redesigns).

As I said - Riot agrees and has acknowledged the lack of counterplay on Eve and the possibility to push Darius's strengths and weaknesses even further. They have agreed with the community so they made it happen. That's entirely what I was saying.

Now they won't change Vi, Draven, Vayne and some others because there is nothing wrong with their designs, no matter how much QQ there would be about them.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Felza View Post
NOTE: I am not trying to argue against your ideas, I am merely reminding you(guys) about something that is essential to LoL as a game which you guys might have left out in consideration.
We haven't actually, but I'll try to convince you in what I'm about to write. Just first of all thank you for being so humble and I'm extremely grateful you have explained DotA's case.

Quote:
Dota had a really nice thematic and extremely interesting mechanics in every champion.
I'd disagree here, a lot of things don't make sense, (Ezalors random teleport ability and so forth)

Quote:
What happened as they released more of this was that inorder to keep the "Mechanics there" and "balance the game" they buffed everyone to be inline with the new power. So in simple words: If new hero has power level of 150, the power level baseline has to be 150.
Exactly ! Wich I think is the case with Thresh currently, I feel he is way stronger than any other support in the game right now - I do NOT feel they have to nerf him. Instead I'd like them to rework all the other supports to have a similar powerlevel to Thresh so Support all have their own thing, they can all do sh*t on there own instead of babysitting the AD carry in your team for 50 minutes.

If you'd like a more detailed or larger explanation for why I think this (wich you probably do) - feel free to ask !

Quote:
As this dragged on, they now are left with a HUGE load of power in the game which requires player to be almost perfect to even compete with the casuals.
The burden of knowledge will slowly increase as the base power line increases.
And this is where I would disagree - that is not what Burden of Knowledge is. DotA has an extremely high skill ceiling, there are more things you have to take into consideration and generally more time you have to invest into the game compared to LoL before you are truly good at it.

Burden of Knowledge is giving people homework before they can enjoy themselves - a game being quite difficult that is dynamic and more engaging is not.

If anything, you are making Esports more interesting as there is more to do in a match, you have more strategies, you have more mechanics and teamcomps that can work in various different ways.

The game will be harder to play indirectly, you'd have to do more to ensure a win for your team, but isn't that fun ?

Let me quote this guy, as this guy said the same thing:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortamor View Post
Because I lack the time to make an informed post, I'll merely give a simple opinion - DAT REMADE FITTLESTIX.

11/10 would main

Anyways, I do support this idea - why? Simple! I play DotA 2.

Now, you might ask why this matters. Well, it's simple, really. I play DotA if I want to go tryhard, I go to League if I want to have a nice, fun game without having to remember OVER NINE THOUSAND things just to play one character. These redesigns would make this so much easier.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ralik098

Senior Member

01-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
They changed Eve because she was being problematic because she lacked counterplay (which we provide with all of our redesigns), and that Morello doesn't want to nerf Darius, but push his strengths and weaknesses even further (which, again, is exactly what we've done with the redesigns).

As I said - Riot agrees and has acknowledged the lack of counterplay on Eve and the possibility to push Darius's strengths and weaknesses even further. They have agreed with the community so they made it happen. That's entirely what I was saying.

Now they won't change Vi, Draven, Vayne and some others because there is nothing wrong with their designs, no matter how much QQ there would be about them.
People don't complain much about those champions... why in the world would they change them. lol

EDIT- even when Eve was problematic they had the good sense to not outright delete her.

Keep abusing those smurfs.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralik098 View Post
People don't complain much about those champions... why in the world would they change them. lol
Exactly ! Because they are fine - they are good designs !

Now - taking all of the posts Morello has ever said on this matter into consideration: They would change all of the champions if they would start anew - regardless of the opinions of the community.

That's basically all you are saying here. 'People like this so I'll be mad when they change it' - Riot has realized what they have done wrong with previous champions and are completely going into a new direction of design with all champions that are coming in 2013, this year. They've acknowledged how to make a design/champion the best it can be. They would probably change all of the characters we have Redesigned if they would start a new because they don't all fit the criteria of this philosophy (yet again confirmed by Morello countless of times)

And then obviously - like Morello said, we have some 'easy wins' on champions where it is extremely obvious they need changes - champions that are bad right now and could be way better. (Yorick, Vladimir primarely, Morello having a hatred against these champions)

Yorick will get a rework - he'll probably have this later rather than anytime soon, but he WILL get that rework. This is what I am trying to say all along: Riot acknowledges Yorick is extremely toxic and could be a way better design in terms of theme, readability and counterplay. Do people enjoy Yorick now ? Sure, but regardless of how many QQ there would be against the Yorick Rework - Riot wouldn't listen, because THEY know how a good champion is designed, so regardless of what the community thinks they'll change whatever they think is needed.

Asking 'Why would people QQ about Vi, Vayne, Draven' would be the wrong question, it should be 'Ask yourself what Riot would do IF people would QQ about them'. The answer: Nothing. Because they are good designs.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ralik098

Senior Member

01-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Exactly ! Because they are fine - they are good designs !

Now - taking all of the posts Morello has ever said on this matter into consideration: They would change all of the champions if they would start anew - regardless of the opinions of the community.

That's basically all you are saying here. 'People like this so I'll be mad when they change it' - Riot has realized what they have done wrong with previous champions and are completely going into a new direction of design with all champions that are coming in 2013, this year. They've acknowledged how to make a design/champion the best it can be. They would probably change all of the characters we have Redesigned if they would start a new because they don't all fit the criteria of this philosophy (yet again confirmed by Morello countless of times)

And then obviously - like Morello said, we have some 'easy wins' on champions where it is extremely obvious they need changes - champions that are bad right now and could be way better. (Yorick, Vladimir primarely, Morello having a hatred against these champions)

Yorick will get a rework - he'll probably have this later rather than anytime soon, but he WILL get that rework. This is what I am trying to say all along: Riot acknowledges Yorick is extremely toxic and could be a way better design in terms of theme, readability and counterplay. Do people enjoy Yorick now ? Sure, but regardless of how many QQ there would be against the Yorick Rework - Riot wouldn't listen, because THEY know how a good champion is designed, so regardless of what the community thinks they'll change whatever they think is needed.

Asking 'Why would people QQ about Vi, Vayne, Draven' would be the wrong question, it should be 'Ask yourself what Riot would do IF people would QQ about them'. The answer: Nothing. Because they are good designs.
Reworks are fine if something truly NEEDS it. Outright removing champions from the game is something Riot would never do as was proven with Eve. If people complained about those champions as much as old Eve was complained about, Riot would have no choice but to do something about it no matter how awesome they personally think those champions are.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralik098 View Post
Reworks are fine if something truly NEEDS it. Outright removing champions from the game is something Riot would never do as was proven with Eve.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralik098 View Post
EDIT- even when Eve was problematic they had the good sense to not outright delete her.
Exactly. Because people would get completely mad if you get rid of something completely, this doesn't count for a sequel, you are free to leave stuff out as people can play the previous game. Trust me, if Riot would ever start anew they would not implement current Mordekaiser. They might leave him in the champion roster, but with a kit rework that actually does match his visual appearance.

That they left Eve in the game is not proof - it confirms Riot is not stupid, as we totally agree with you - it would be extremely lame and stupid to 'just remove' content from a game even if the designers acknowledge the content as a mistake. That doesn't mean they'd do it all over if they would have the chance to start anew.

EDIT: I'm grateful that you have actually started speaking in terms of making sense, saying something that has value - something I can respond to without thinking I am wasting my time. As previously all you have done is just trashtalking with unconstructive arguments that are invalid. Interestingly enough, you haven't responded to the counterargument we've given on these posts at all - interesting.