Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? @Morello @Feralpony @IronStylus @Xypherous

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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by heathenscum View Post
I can't find the specific quote I was looking for but here is one where he mentions that Darius' counter play is messed up. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...45547#33745547

I am pretty sure I remember reading him saying they had to scale him back because while Darius was fun to play it was not fun for whomever he was laning against. I could be wrong cause it was a while ago I read it and I can't find it (of course the search functions in this are kinda lacking). Regardless the theory is sound.
That's entirely what Morello has said, he isn't saying there is an absolute lack of counterplay, Darius has defined strengths and weaknesses and his competitive play performance only confirms that. Also, we hotlinked into the OP where CertainlyT, the designer of Darius has said himself that is it unclear what should be done to Darius, as he does have these defined strenghts and weaknesses.

Yeah, they might have messed up a bit as it is as Darius punishes too hard, hence Morello wants to define the strengths as well as the weaknesses even further. Making the obvious counterplay to Darius even more obvious.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-26-2013

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Originally Posted by heathenscum View Post
See I think the thing you are doing is designing a whole new game. Perhaps it would be a fun game but it would fail as a PVP MOBA. You are building an RPG. After reading back I can see I'm just reiterating things that Morello has already said. Since you obviously want to lecture instead of having a discussion let me just say why don't you just go make your own game and see how well it does? If it gets a million players I will apologize on bended knee. I don't think you really understand how balance works at all
Riot has come up with designs that look balantly OP on paper but turned out to be perfectly balancable.

You are basing your arguments on nothing here as you are saying 'I think you have no knowledge on how to balance a game' just by looking at the Redesigns, the most funny part is; a lot of them you can't really say how they will turn out, wether they be OP or UP, you can't tell.

You can make everything look borderline OP with sentences 'omg omg tru damage nuke reset on kill' 'op teleport skill for ganking' 'op 3 charge rush hardcore mobility' 'op permaslow champion slowing everyone constantly' (Hi Sejuani you are currently very OP !)

All of what you say - you backing it up with absolutely nothing. If we say something, we have a reason for it, we give the reason and provide hotlinks if need be.

EDIT: Sorry - I forgot to get back at Galio, now don't think we were ignoring you there. Let me explain: Galio completely revolves around being a gargoyle to the enemy while being more like a guardian for his allies, he's a tanky support. His 'grab' skill is extremely iconic and fits the gargoyle/guardian for allies playstyle. Oh and by the way, the ability is just called 'Righteous Gust' - Galio Redesign has indeed no actual wind involved in his abilities as that indeed wouldn't make sense.


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heathenscum

Senior Member

01-26-2013

Its funny that you would use Sejuani as an example. On paper she looks 'very OP' why isn't she? Because her abilities are so powerful they had to be nerfed so much that they have very little affect on the game and so she ends up sucking. Even though they all revolve around her THEME.
You are focusing on theme to the exclusion of all else. its like what morello said in his early comment on this thread. Mechanics is a huge part of the game. To balance the game they have to put things in that may not be the best fit thematically. Its ok. Readability is not the end all be all of gaming. Theme is not the end all be all of gaming. League of Legends is a very strong game that does have some design flaws in champions but they still manage to be fairly balanced. Offering suggestions is one thing plagiarizing a game is another.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by heathenscum View Post
Its funny that you would use Sejuani as an example. On paper she looks 'very OP' why isn't she? Because her abilities are so powerful they had to be nerfed so much that they have very little affect on the game and so she ends up sucking. Even though they all revolve around her THEME.You are focusing on theme to the exclusion of all else. its like what morello said in his early comment on this thread. Mechanics is a huge part of the game. To balance the game they have to put things in that may not be the best fit thematically. Its ok. Readability is not the end all be all of gaming. Theme is not the end all be all of gaming. League of Legends is a very strong game that does have some design flaws in champions but they still manage to be fairly balanced. Offering suggestions is one thing plagiarizing a game is another.
This is where you really begin to frustrate me--where you ignore just about everything we've said in this thread and continue to throw out bunk claims with no sort of backing or reason behind them.

You're saying that we're focusing on theme above all, but like we've said in this thread multiple times, we simply use it as a guideline for unity and readability. We don't sacrifice any one thing for any other, we simply change things so that they all work together 100%. Sejuani can't be as powerful as she can be because she has that ranged aspect to her kit--her ult--and thus can't be as powerful as she could be close-up (the same thing applies to Malphite, hence the removal of his Q projectile). She wasn't unified in design, and I unified her with the redesign.

And again, you're being incredibly insufferable right now, so if this reply doesn't put things in order for you, then I will no longer suffer you gladly. We have stacked up plenty of evidence to the contrary of each and every single one of your claims.

Think I don't know how to balance? I'll raise you one "defined and accessible counterplay"--balance through design (leaving only numbers, which are easy to shift and change).

Think I ignore mechanics? I'll raise you one "just about every redesigned champion is rich with mechanics that are tailored to fit in with the playstyle informed by their theming."

Think we are putting theming and readability above all else? I'll raise you one "try not to form opinions until you do the research"--every post Peri and I have made in this thread is evidence to the contrary of all of your claims.

This will be my last response to you--I cannot say the same for Peri. While I relish thoughtful critique and developmental discourse, you fail to provide either and have absolutely nothing to contribute to this thread, this discussion, and the possible future of League of Legends as a video game and an eSport. You've tested my patience--which is no small feat--so if you don't have anything useful to say, I'm going to have to leave you behind.

I hope you improve your attention to detail and critical thinking skills, for your sake.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by heathenscum View Post
Its funny that you would use Sejuani as an example. On paper she looks 'very OP' why isn't she? Because her abilities are so powerful they had to be nerfed so much that they have very little affect on the game and so she ends up sucking. Even though they all revolve around her THEME.
You are focusing on theme to the exclusion of all else. its like what morello said in his early comment on this thread. Mechanics is a huge part of the game. To balance the game they have to put things in that may not be the best fit thematically. Its ok. Readability is not the end all be all of gaming. Theme is not the end all be all of gaming. League of Legends is a very strong game that does have some design flaws in champions but they still manage to be fairly balanced. Offering suggestions is one thing plagiarizing a game is another.
All the arguments you have come up with we have responded to yet you don't get back at them, after reading our response.

Who is ignoring who now ?

Also, you misunderstood Morello's post completely and this makes your entire argument invalid: Morello thought we were sarcrificing cool mechanics so we could live up to theme. Right now you are saying Morello talked about already sacrificing cool mechanics even if they fit themetically but morello chooses not to because they would be broken OP.

He didn't say that at all, he said he opted more for mechanics than theming (while we try to do both but that doesn't matter) - you condratict yourself so hard here it makes me smile.

You are ignoring us. I don't see why you are coming here over and over if you don't respond to all our counter arguments, from the looks of it seems you are avoiding it. Well done.


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kikme

Junior Member

01-26-2013

I think the champions are cool exept 1 champion. I hate Darius he is OP and he just walks around kiling people because of his OP ult that does 900-1360 true dmg. Could Riot even consider balancing him.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by kikme View Post
I think the champions are cool exept 1 champion. I hate Darius he is OP and he just walks around kiling people because of his OP ult that does 900-1360 true dmg. Could Riot even consider balancing him.
Not sure if sarcastic or not with this one. I can never really tell on GD!

Keep in mind that his ult only does Sick Damages after he's put 5 stacks of Hemorrhage on you, meaning you've stayed right next to him too long. Also, if he's doing more than 860 damage with his ult, he probably isn't building enough survivability to actually last long enough to get those stacks up in teamfights. Low mobility, no escape mechs, so on and so forth.

He can certainly be pushed further--but if he does change, that's what would happen. He wouldn't be buffed or nerfed--because that would make him OP or UP, respectively. But by pushing his weaknesses while also pushing his strengths (like I've done with the redesigns in this thread), it would create a more rewarding champion with even more defined and accessible counterplay!


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guhnosis

Senior Member

01-26-2013

Quick aside before I dive in. Have you ever actually made and completed a game?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
I can accept that you don't agree with some of my changes, but do you think that may because you simply wouldn't like how that champion would play, and are equating "I wouldn't enjoy playing this" to "This is poorly designed"?
I don't know how meaningful the differentiation is. What's the point of a good game design if it's not that it's fun to play? A design can be as theoretically solid as it wants. Does -anyone- actually enjoy playing it? Most importantly, does your target audience enjoy playing it? To go back to Schell, sometimes you design this game for a long long time and then when you actually play it, well, surprise surprise, it's not fun at all. Why? It depends, but in action games (I use the term broadly and would include LoL), I think it usually goes back to the visceral experience I was talking about, the mechanical satisfaction, the juiciness of the game (these are all parts of/different ways of describing that nebulous thing I've been talking about, the physicality of real-time action games that differentiates them from a turn-based board game).

And to take a page from your book, if there's one thing I know, it's that. A decade of competitive fighting game experience and half that in non-competitive but serious study/play in MOBAs & FPSes does that to a person. Add to this a constant habit of enjoying and playing almost every character in the games I play and, well, if I don't think a character's going to be satisfying to play, or has a weaker design that's less satisfying to play, I have a bit of experience to back that up. It's not quite so subjective and meaningless as 'one random dude thinks this wouldn't be fun to play'.

To go off your most recent post, I still pretty much think all of those things about you. Poppy's pretty good at showing the lack of keen eye towards balance and insistence on theming/readability above all. Does her kit fit the theme? Yep. Is it an acceptable kit with your minor changes? Nope. There's a reason Riot hasn't done anything to make her a more popular pick, they realize how god awful her kit is and that she's a 'chainsaw' character.

Balance, mechanical satisfaction, strong theme but toxic gameplay... Quite a few of your designs succumb to flaws in one or the other. I could go in to more specifics but you haven't responded to the original specifics I went into as it is (Ashe passive broken support OP...). Plus I have work soon and, honestly, I've spent enough time here. Good luck in your future, I hope you continue to grow and mature as a designer, especially if you're ever let anywhere near LoL's champions

edit: your most recent post changed since I typed this; left it at my computer for a while before posting haha. Anyway, I was referring to where you listed off "you think I don't know balance? you think I don't know, etc."


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Kellėn

Senior Member

01-26-2013

kk


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by guhnosis View Post
I don't know how meaningful the differentiation is. What's the point of a good game design if it's not that it's fun to play?
Good game design creates games that are fun to play. Even if you don't personally enjoy one of the redesigned champions, that's alright--chances are somebody else does, and chances are you'll like a different one. That's what happens when a roster is diverse; everyone is different, and everyone likes different things/looks for different things in their champions.

Quote:
A design can be as theoretically solid as it wants. Does -anyone- actually enjoy playing it? Most importantly, does your target audience enjoy playing it?
Haven't read your entire post yet (I reply on-the-go--don't have much free time at the moment), but this is sounding suspiciously like "the only things that are fun are what I think is fun," which we've dealt with multiple times in this thread.

The good thing is that I can take each and every single redesign and go "people will like this champion if they like to X." For example, "People that enjoy seizing and fortifying points by bunkering up will enjoy playing Heimerdinger," or "People that like jumping head-first into danger and blasting their enemies away will enjoy playing Graves." Different strokes for different folks! Whenever I'm designing, fun is among my top priority--however, I keep in mind that different people enjoy different things and try to cover as many bases as possible while still staying within the confines of the framework of League of Legends.

Quote:
To go back to Schell, sometimes you design this game for a long long time and then when you actually play it, well, surprise surprise, it's not fun at all. Why? It depends, but in action games (I use the term broadly and would include LoL), I think it usually goes back to the visceral experience I was talking about, the mechanical satisfaction, the juiciness of the game (these are all parts of/different ways of describing that nebulous thing I've been talking about, the physicality of real-time action games that differentiates them from a turn-based board game).
And I've done just that--it's really starting to bug me now, that people are coming to the misconception of thinking that I'm sacrificing gameplay for thematic coherence and readability, which isn't the case here. Each champion is fit with mechanics that are tailor-made for them. Think Thresh's Death Sentence, Vi's Vault Breaker, Draven's Spinning Axes, and so on.

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And to take a page from your book, if there's one thing I know, it's that. A decade of competitive fighting game experience and half that in non-competitive but serious study/play in MOBAs & FPSes does that to a person. Add to this a constant habit of enjoying and playing almost every character in the games I play and, well, if I don't think a character's going to be satisfying to play, or has a weaker design that's less satisfying to play, I have a bit of experience to back that up. It's not quite so subjective and meaningless as 'one random dude thinks this wouldn't be fun to play'.
This is probably a case of a general lack of diversity--unless you have a very wide range of gameplay you enjoy (for example, I enjoy Shaco, Olaf, Kog'Maw, and Thresh equally, simply because they are all well-designed), you're probably not going to enjoy every champion! To quote Morello again, "But what we really want to do - is create a good variety of champions, so that every player has a few to several champions that they are absolutely stoked about - instead of having like a whole slew of champions that people are not interested in and don't really buy into." Every point I make in this thread and its predecessors are pretty much just me reiterating and expanding upon points that the Rioters themselves have made! While I may not have experience developing games, they certainly do.

Quote:
To go off your most recent post, I still pretty much think all of those things about you. Poppy's pretty good at showing the lack of keen eye towards balance and insistence on theming/readability above all. Does her kit fit the theme? Yep. Is it an acceptable kit with your minor changes? Nope. There's a reason Riot hasn't done anything to make her a more popular pick, they realize how god awful her kit is and that she's a 'chainsaw' character.
I've pushed her strengths and weaknesses--let me quote from her kit itself:

"Valiant Fighter: Any damage dealt to Poppy that exceeds 10% of her current health is reduced by 50%. This does not reduce damage from structures."

What I've done, essentially, is taken that 50% reduction and made it only apply to one target. What does this do? It rewards her for "pulling enemies aside" and beating them down (while also promoting aggression--it's only in effect if she's attacking somebody, shaping the way players play her), while making her less resistant if she's getting beaten on by multiple enemies. It's a more controllable version of her Innate too, which is also more satisfying as a player.

I've also removed mixed damage from her kit, which should balance out her damage output.

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Balance, mechanical satisfaction, strong theme but toxic gameplay... Quite a few of your designs succumb to flaws in one or the other.
Before I go any further, let me explain what "toxic gameplay" is--toxic gameplay is a lack of counterplay, meaning that there is nothing you can do against a certain champion aside from battle numbers against them. Xin Zhao (if you get into X range, he will dash in and knock you up every time--you can't avoid that) and Zilean (if you get into X range, you will eat at least 1 bomb) are probably the most popular examples Riot uses in regards to this.

In terms of balance? Defined strengths and weaknesses take care of that (balance through design--something champs like Lee Sin, Heimer, and Irelia lack due to their kits being fairly undefined; no one thing can be satisfying because there is so much crammed into their kits at once).

In terms of mechanical satisfaction? Each champion has mechanics tailor-fit to them. I've also improved on fairly mechanically dull champions, such as Nunu/Gangplank, Ryze, Taric, Sona, Master Yi, Fiddlesticks, Pantheon, etc. etc. etc.

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I could go in to more specifics but you haven't responded to the original specifics I went into as it is (Ashe passive broken support OP...).
Numbers can be fixed, also keep in mind that Ashe's base AD (and AD/level) is horrendously low. She would never really work as a support because she's too item-dependent, due to being a carry--in fact, carries and supports are on opposite ends of the "gold required for optimum performance" scale, and in terms of kit/damage/general usefulness, Thresh would actually outclass her as a support. Much like the rest of your post, this comment doesn't seem too well-thought-out (no offense, you're probably tired).

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Plus I have work soon and, honestly, I've spent enough time here. Good luck in your future, I hope you continue to grow and mature as a designer, especially if you're ever let anywhere near LoL's champions
Appreciate the well-wishes, don't appreciate the snubby attitude. Please keep it on the low, it doesn't really help your "I didn't really read or understand anything in this thread but I have an uninformed opinion I feel like voicing because this is a public forum on the Internet" case here. : )

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edit: your most recent post changed since I typed this; left it at my computer for a while before posting haha. Anyway, I was referring to where you listed off "you think I don't know balance? you think I don't know, etc."
A response to an uncalled-for and unfounded accusation, with evidence to back it up. Don't quite see the problem there! Sometimes the kid gloves have to come off, and I'm not afraid of asserting myself. That's what happens when you base your opinions on facts, science, common sense, and game design principles from seasoned pros (Schell and Riot, in this case)! Like I said, I relish in thoughtful critique and developmental discourse, but if you're going to come in here and essentially say "NICE TRY KID BUT YOU DON'T KNOW SH*T--NOT REALLY GOING TO BACK UP MY POINTS BUT BY THE WAY EVERYTHING YOU SAY IS WRONG REGARDLESS OF HOW MUCH YOU BACK IT UP" (pardon my French) , I'm not going to take very kindly to it. It's a disservice to this thread and any good discussion that has ever occurred anywhere and at any time, and I will have absolutely none of it.

Get some good rest though, 7 hours or more! : )