Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? @Morello @Feralpony @IronStylus @Xypherous

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Whyumai

Senior Member

01-19-2013

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Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Gimme a few minutes - I'll come back at this later, and yeah Darius is a tricky case as the possible solutions Morello provides could be considered to be quite legit. : )
take your time. No rush. about to start a game anyway.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-19-2013

UPDATE: Akali redesign LITE page, ultimate description fixed for clarity in terms of mechanics. I forget sometimes that not everyone can read minds!

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Originally Posted by Whyumai View Post
This sticks out to me, alot of what you have posted I don't agree with. This in particular though.

The thread you mention (but link incorrectly too):



Essentially the "counter play" is not to go near him.

If you go near him you die then he gets fed (and you don't get fed at all) but if you don't go near him he free farms and get's fed that way (while you don't get fed at all). This means that you actually have to go near him (I'm assuming he'll be near the minions in your lane but if he's afk at his nexus I guess this doesn't apply - but hey, DDoS attacks counter everything I suppose). The counter play isn't actually a counter at all.
Except you're incorrect there, as well. You're assuming that every champion that faces off against him has equal or less range than he does, and is incapable of creating a gap between them after Darius lands his pull. In-lane, if you have the advantage of range against them, you can push that as hard as you can--meaning Darius would have to essentially jump through hoops or ask for a jungler's help if he wants to deal with you. If you're left at melee range (Riven, Irelia, etc.), you can simply let him push his lane by baiting out his Q every 9 seconds, and then have your jungler gank and help you kill him because he has no escape mechanics (he's all about keeping enemies near him--a defined strength--and is thus not too good at disengaging--a defined weakness).

Outside of lane, you can rely on your teammates (considering LoL is a team game, although if you think that Darius is overpowered or lacks counterplay, you may not have realized that yet) to use their range and CC to keep Darius at bay, since he can't deal with being kited and if he misses his pull, he's pretty much useless until it's back up again.

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This means that the actual counters to Darius are Teemo, Kayle and Kennen. All of which are ranged and typically faster than Darius. However even when played well these counters can be beaten by Darius
We're not talking about "hard-counters" here--we're talking about counterplay, not counter by design. Darius has very defined and specific weaknesses that are innate to his kit's design and his playstyle--very low mobility, no ability to disengage, complete lack of ranged components or sustain, reliance on longer engagements for damage output (whereas most champs can just blow their abilities at full power right from the get-go), and susceptibility to soft crowd control. Counterplay against Darius would involve using either your own strengths or the strengths of your allies to push these weaknesses and make Darius less effective overall. That's how counterplay works (although it isn't nearly as defined with most champions--another thing I try to fix--so you may not have been able to spot it).

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This is because it requires much more skill to beat Darius in lane than Darius actually requires to beat them in lane.
Incorrect. Darius has to contend with the fact that he has very strong weaknesses (no range, no sustain, low mobility, reliance on drawn-out fights, inability to disengage) and must work around those in order to be effective in-lane. While to you it might look like "oh hurr durr I just press Q whenever it's up and hook my lane opponent and then instant pentakill once I hit 6," Darius is less about technical skill and more about trying to get situations to work in his favor (which in Darius's case involves closing the gap between you and him and keeping it minimal for as long as possible).

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That's not good counter play. That's part of the problem with Darius and part of the problem with your argument. Good play styles are typically champion that are well defined for their role (regardless of whatever that might be), this makes it harder to beat them even if they do have counter play available.
You just contradicted yourself in your own argument. The more defined the strengths are (potency in close-range, potency in drawn-out fights, sticking power), the more defined the weaknesses are in turn (helplessness at longer range, significantly less power in short trades, lack self-moving gap-closers or other mobility). Your inability to capitalize on these weaknesses is only a testament to your lack of competence as a player, not to any sort of flaw in design. In other words, it's your fault for not hitting that huge glowing hemisphere on that final boss's back--instead opting to keep on trying to attack them from the front and then complaining loudly when its health bar isn't going down.

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It's also worth noting that Irelia is an example of this. She has a clearly defined distinctive playstyle
This sentence made my eyes bleed--there's absolutely nothing distinctive about her playstyle and is by far the blandest, most flavorless bruiser in the League. She was not defined around a specific theme or playstyle, but rather as a direct counter to the "everyone is an ADC" metagame that was prevalent around her release and by far one of Riot's greatest mistakes in terms of champion design.

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but is designed too well at her role. It's why she seems to be nerfed all the time. In fact most of the examples you could give for problematic champions fall into this category.
It's the fact that she can do so much while still being only one champion. It's the same deal with Jayce and Lee Sin, really.

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Heimer is designed to push towers quickly.
Instead of being based around a solid theme and playstyle? This is where his problem lies.

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It's because of this playstyle that Heimer is nerfed consistently without any real buffs. Meanwhile he has a clear and well defined turtling play style with well defined available counters.
Except not really--the only real "turle-y" part of his playstyle lies in his turrets, and they're laughably weak because their power is limited by the existence of his other two ranged multi-target/AoE nukes.

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Having said that he's currently nerfed to a fairly useless state because his clearly defined distinctive play style is actually quite toxic.
Because he falls into the "doing too many things" category. He's not defined, which is the problem. He has (had, rather) strong fortification and defensive ability in his turrets, as well as the independent aggressive poke damage of his 'nades and rockets. THAT's why he has been nerfed to the ground, and why release Heimer is something that people don't like to think about. He wasn't defined around his turrets, they were just a lot of extra stuff he had alongside his regular mage abilities. And he'll never be as strong as he could be as long as those mage abilities are still intact.

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if he wins his lane then typically he'll smash straight through their tower. Win the lane a couple of times and he's approaching on their inhib (of whatever lane he's currently in).
Except at that point he is incredibly overextended and could be readily instagibbed by a gank. He has no escape mechanisms, piss-poor survivability, and his only source of crowd control is unreliable at best. I'm starting to doubt whether I should continue to take your claims seriously, because you don't seem to think very much about things before you say them (and have therefore placed the burden of thinking and saying these things onto me).

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Eve is another champion that has a clearly defined distinctive play style that is extremely problematic. While I could go on and on with more and more champions as examples (interestingly enough karma is another example)
The problem with Eve (and champs with global ults, like TF and Pantheon) is not that they're too defined, but rather that all other champions are not defined enough. They have very specific, particular strengths (somewhat mitigated with Eve, however, as with the rework of her ult she actually has a fair amount of teamfighting power on her end--a bad move on Riot's part, as the sort of "high speed/kiting assassin" has a good feel to it and could be balanced otherwise), which makes them stick out like a sore thumb in a crowd of champions that fulfill their roles in very generic and undefined ways.

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I think the point is either clear or you'll never get it.
Interesting, this is exactly what I've been thinking in regards to your understanding of the subject. I hate to talk down to people, but you just seem like you aren't getting some of the fundamental aspects at play, here. Of course, you may not have played this game as long as I have or look at it as critically as I do, but that doesn't excuse your unfounded attitude and arrogance about the matter.

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The problem with play styles is that the better tuned a champion is to fill a certain play style (regardless of how niche the role) the more problematic that champion tends to be.
You've said this multiple times by this point, but haven't given any proper reasoning behind it. What about a champion being more defined makes them more "problematic"? The fact that they have incredibly readable strengths and weaknesses? The fact that understanding these strengths and weaknesses can help you understand both how to play them and how to counterplay them? The fact that, if every champion were well-defined and had their own special something to bring to the role that they fill would make every champion competitively viable, instead of having all champions within a certain role trying to pretty much do the same exact thing, with different levels of effectiveness (Heim not being able to mage as hard as other mages because he still has that element of "Revered Inventor" that doesn't fall in-line with what a generic mage is and should be capable of)? Please, do tell.

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Anyway, I could make arguments against most of what's in the OP but this is the only one that really sticks out to me as wrong. A better "play style" does not always make a champion better.
-More defined strengths (meaning there is a reason to play this champion over X champion within the same role, and a reason to play X champion over this champion as well--nothing is tiered because every champion excels equally at their own thing and doesn't try to be anyone else)

-More defined weaknesses (meaning counterplay is easily accessible and easily understood, as opposed to simply "don't get hit by X ability" or "don't let them farm" or "wait for them to fall off after 20 minutes")

-Greater diversity (in terms of roster and team compositions--all champions fitting into either Defensive, Aggressive, or Control-based play instead of all trying to do the same thing and playing the same game every time regardless of which champions are in play)

-More dynamic flow (all of a champion's abilities work towards a common goal instead of just being a hodge-podge of things they can use to fulfill their role--Irelia is a perfect example of why this is an awful thing to have)

-An enriched experience (playing Olaf, for example, is a much different experience from playing Shaco--both are very well-defined and thematically juicy champions, and offers more to the player than simply "oh with this champion you have to use these abilities in this order and buy these items")

What exactly is bad about this again?

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I can't think of a champion where I can honestly say that the "play style" or how well suited it is to that "play style" actually makes the champion "better". Although I guess these are quite subjective terms without any substantial meaning at all which, may in fact, be part of the problem.
"Better" here means fulfilling the bullet points I've mentioned above. The champions that fulfill this ideal quality and coherency of kit and playstyle are the vast minority at the moment, but that doesn't make what they do any less awesome. It's not subjective at all--it can be broken into a science, and, in fact, that's exactly what I've done.

If you still have any questions, I'll be back in about half an hour. This has kept me from breakfast for long enough.


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LastLaughLol

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Senior Member

01-19-2013

Amazing thread, well thought out, and informative. Took a lot of effort, upvotes on all, thanks for this great thread.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-19-2013

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Originally Posted by Whyumai View Post
take your time. No rush. about to start a game anyway.
Thanks man, seems like you really are a dude I/we can talk with. +1

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Essentially the "counter play" is not to go near him.................The counter play isn't actually a counter at all.
I'll give you that, Darius might still be a bit problematic - ItemsGuy is actually considering of a rework similar to Morello's suggestions, wich lays even more emphasis on 'the long you are close to Darius, the more he'll wreck your balls' but most importantly increase the numbers before he can deal that killing blow.

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Good play styles are typically champion that are well defined for their role (regardless of whatever that might be), this makes it harder to beat them even if they do have counter play available.
No offense, but you are totally wrong here, I'll continue to back it up with arguments, starting with you mentioning Irelia:

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It's also worth nothing that Irelia is an example of this. She has a clearly defined distinctive playstyle but is designed too well at her role. It's why she seems to be nerfed all the time. In fact most of the examples you could give for problematic champions fall into this category.
Let's talk Irelia, you mentioning she's designed too well at her role ? Well that's weird, as we say the more distinctive a playstyle is the more counterplay there is to it, so we might have a different opinion on Irelia here.

ItemsGuy likes to think Irelia is one of the worst champions in the game (as far as I know there will not be a Redesign coming from his part on Irelia) - her problems:
As you say - she has WAY too much in her kit, she basically excells at everything, that's no imbalance only in numbers, but imbalance in terms of kit.

On top of that, she isn't readable as a design at all, she has some floating blade, pops out random blades with her ultimate, has a 'stun for the sake of a stun' in her kit aswell as a 'slow for the sake of a slow' - Irelia could potentially be one of the hardest characters to read as barely anything is relevant to her as a character, there's nothing she tells you from looking at her splash art besides from: 'Well she has a pretty face, but I think she's violent aswell.'

Maybe you like to think Irelia has a kit/unique playstyle of her own (wich obviously she does have, especially in terms of her ultimate and Q mechanic wich I find very fun, hopping from one minion to another onto your lane opponent is immensely fun) - but in our opinion she's no more than a character who has random abilities slapped onto her that do work well together, but are WAY too much and barely provide a distinctive playstyle to actually be countered well.

Irelia is kind of a big deal/vague problem, so I think I'll provide more specific examples of why the more distinctive a playstyle is the more counterplay there is to it.

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Heimer is designed to push towers quickly. It's because of this playstyle that Heimer is nerfed consistently without any real buffs. Meanwhile he has a clear and well defined turtling play style with well defined available counters. Having said that he's currently nerfed to a fairly useless state because his clearly defined distinctive play style is actually quite toxic. if he wins his lane then typically he'll smash straight through their tower. Win the lane a couple of times and he's approaching on their inhib (of whatever lane he's currently in).
We've discussed Heimerdinger in this OP and our previous post in more detail - his two 'generic mage abilities' in combination with his turrets is imbalance through design, not just through numbers.

On top of that, as we've provided a Heimerdinger Redesign, we don't really think he is defined as an Inventor, he could be more playing like an Inventor so this Redesign completely focuses on that in his kit, making him more reliant on inventions (in, fact 3 out of 4 abilities are now and invention), making the counterplay to him clear as day while getting rid of the extremely toxic/imbalance in his kit: the fact how he can completely screw you over with grenades and rockets and when you actually decide to go in he'll hit even harder with his turrets.

As said in the OP, he's currently more than a engineer that ones to be a mage rather than a real inventor and as long as he has these 'magish' abilities, Riot will have a hard time balancing him.

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Having said that he's currently nerfed to a fairly useless state because his clearly defined distinctive play style is actually quite toxic. if he wins his lane then typically he'll smash straight through their tower. Win the lane a couple of times and he's approaching on their inhib (of whatever lane he's currently in).
Really want to lay an emphasis here - regardless of Heimerdinger's current state, as I think we both approve of the fact it's pretty messed up/imbalanced being either OP or UP, but winning your lane and stomping afterwards should be just fine.

I think current (AD bruiser) Nidalee (regardless of her living up to her theme enough) is a good example of this. She's a good splitpusher and lane bully but is known for very very weak teamfighting, forcing teamfights all the time is pretty dang effective when playing against a Nidalee toplane, she completely melts in a fight, is very vulnerable to CC and gets kited quite often, now that's good, it would be imbalanced if Nidalee splitpushes aswell as she teamfights, as then she wouldn't have a very drastic weakness.

If she wins her lane however and ends up 5/0 before she joins a teamfight - no wonder she'll be able to actually be effective in teamfights.

Much like there is plenty of stuff you can do against current TF: ward, so you see where he's walking up to before he actually can ult, don't push your lane/don't wander alone.

The counterplay is clear as day and the strength of ganking and utility TF provides for his team is a reason to sometimes pick him over a typical 'teamfighting mage' such as Cassiopea, Orianna or Karthus - this means TF sacrifices some strength in teamfighting while he has stronger mappresence/ganking power than other mages, if he gets fed however (wich counts for ever champion getting fed) he'll have way more impact on the game - even in teamfights.

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Eve is another champion that has a clearly defined distinctive play style that is extremely problematic. While I could go on and on with more and more champions as examples (interestingly enough karma is another example) I think the point is either clear or you'll never get it.
I actually think right now they did a pretty good job with her this patch - previously I think she was WAY to rewarding for the little amount you had to do in order to get a kill. In brought her into a stage where she was not only good at roaming but also great at teamfighting as getting level 6 meant like a guarenteed double kill (heck on all of the featured solomid guides before DFG was nerfed 'rush this item, get 6, walk up to lane opponent, pop cooldowns, you've got a kill)

I think they did a pretty good job now - she's more reliant on her playstyle wich is roaming but she has to play smart instead of 'if i walk here im going to get kills guarenteed' and then IF she manages to snowball, wich is way harder right now, she actually gets rewarded to contribute to teamfights more effectively.

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The problem with play styles is that the better tuned a champion is to fill a certain play style (regardless of how niche the role) the more problematic that champion tends to be.
Like Pantheon currently ? A manly Spartan that doesn't really play like a manly spartan as he throws spears from a distance like a p*ssy while there is no counterplay to him ? I suggest you read the redesign as ItemsGuy made his playstyle/kit fit his theme even better getting rid of the no-counterplay.

Like current Trundle ultimate is not only not readable right now but also has ZERO counterplay apart from 'if you are in range you'll eat this spell' ? Trundle Redesign has minor changes laying a better emphasis on being a nasty troll, improving his theming playstyle, readability and counterplay along the way.

Like current Malphite is less problematic then the Redesign Malphite ? Where currently the counterplay is: 'initiate before this guy does'

Like current Taric provides more counterplay than Taric Redesign ? Where current Taric stuns someone guarenteed with little counterplay besides 'if you are in range of this ability you'll get stunned'

Like current Olaf provides more counterplay than Olaf Redesign ? Where currently Olaf can ghost ult in and there's NOTHING you can do to stop him, potentially killing atleast 2 people of your team in small amounts of time ?

I'd really like it if you could checkout those redesigns; Taric, Trundle, Panteon, Malphite, Olaf - they all have changes to improve theming in terms of playstyle and readability while providing WAY more counterplay.

I agree on some champions or Redesigns - they may look extremely tricky where you are either doubting if they are OP or unreliable, but they can be perfectly balanced (TF and Shaco being some good examples, eventhough they have quite a history in terms of balance)

The more distinctive a theming playstyle is, the more counterplay there is to it, fact. I bolded 'theming' there as Irelia is not an example of this - she doesn't have a playstyle that is relevant to her as a character, she may have a defined playstyle in terms of 'Assasin bruiser that dunks on people and then autoattacks them with true damage' - this is not themed and therefore is not only extremely hard to read, it barely provides counterplay. It's not a theming playstyle.

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= A better "play style" does not always make a champion better.
We never said this. Infact, we agree - a champion that is well-themed in terms of abilities and visual appearance and artwork (making the champion extremely readable) - while providing counterplay would be a extremely good champion.

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I can't think of a champion where I can honestly say that the "play style" or how well suited it is to that "play style" actually makes the champion "better".
Thresh says hi.

Theming: Check, throught abilities, visual appearance and lore this guy reflects a typical 'jailer playstyle', enriching the player's experience of actually playing that character.

I'ma give you some time aswell, please take a look at the Redesigns if asked you to check out, providing some solid examples of how the more distinctive a playstyle is, the more counterplay there is to it.

EDIT: My apologies for ItemsGuy here - he did already mention how he does not like to 'talk down people' though he sometimes just really does not have the patience or energy to stay humble, everything he says over there is legit it just might sound a bit unfriendly, still asking you to read my comment post here above aswell dude

EDIT2: I'm not sure if you'll be convinced by this or not, but if you do or don't, would be awesome if you could tell us, either saying you agree and get our reasoning now or continue'ing the discussing.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-19-2013

As a side note: what Peri said is true, regarding Darius. I'd like to push his playstyle as far as it can go--requiring him to stay in combat longer to reach "full" effectiveness, but rewarding it even more. His Innate would be weaker per stack but stack higher (and perhaps last longer), his Q might apply two stacks at its sweetspot to further reward players for landing it (instead of mashing Q mindlessly) and make him more potent in teamfights--or perhaps have it spread Hemo stacks to adjacent targets, etc.

Not sure if I'd agree with the whole "his slow doesn't get reduced cooldown with stacks" thing--that's part of what really allows him to ramp up in longer fights and grants him the sticking power he desperately needs to stay relevant and capitalize on his short-range power, but if the overall cooldown were reduced on top of having increased effects with Hemo stacks (or perhaps applying 2)--the movespeed slow and the attackspeed slow, so duels can be favorable for him--then I can see it as being a thing that isn't generally unsatisfying to use.

The only real problem I'd have with his ult only being full power at a higher level of stacks is that, like Morello said, you wouldn't be getting those full stacks in EVERY fight and wouldn't always be using your ultimate at max stacks (sometimes needing to blow it sooner, especially in closer fights)--because the two values that are available in the tooltip are its base damage and it's maximum damage, and knowing these is paramount to being able to ult as early as possible while also getting the reset.

This could be easily fixed, though--if that "double axes" mark that currently appears at 5 stacks also appeared/appeared instead when an enemy's health where at the threshhold where your ultimate would kill them--so if you had 7 stacks and your ult would kill them at that point, then you could pop it and have things done with. It also removes any arbitrary, depth-less skill requirement to the execution (heh) of the ability, since focusing on memorizing values and keeping an eye on the enemy health bar in the top left corner of the screen takes away from the game, and that's not a good thing.


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Whyumai

Senior Member

01-19-2013

I'm going to reply to this post first, then itemguy's reply next although item replied first, I feel it's more appropriate to reply first to the person I was replying to first.

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Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Thanks man, seems like you really are a dude I/we can talk with. +1
thanks.

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Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
I'll give you that, Darius might still be a bit problematic - ItemsGuy is actually considering of a rework similar to Morello's suggestions, wich lays even more emphasis on 'the long you are close to Darius, the more he'll wreck your balls' but most importantly increase the numbers before he can deal that killing blow.
See, I just think the entire idea is flawed: he's designed to totally dominate his lane if they get within X range. The counter play to that is actually extremely limited and limits the play of that lane around that style. More so, I feel it limits options in future champions (actually he won't - what will invariably happen is someone will come along that does what he does only better - however he should limit options).

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Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
No offense, but you are totally wrong here, I'll continue to back it up with arguments, starting with you mentioning Irelia:
Fair enough.

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Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Let's talk Irelia, you mentioning she's designed too well at her role ? Well that's weird, as we say the more distinctive a playstyle is the more counterplay there is to it, so we might have a different opinion on Irelia here.
Hence why I disagree with your assertion.

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Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
ItemsGuy likes to think Irelia is one of the worst champions in the game (as far as I know there will not be a Redesign coming from his part on Irelia) - her problems:
As you say - she has WAY too much in her kit, she basically excells at everything, that's no imbalance only in numbers, but imbalance in terms of kit.
Interestingly enough, Jayce, Elise, Nidalee, all have more in their kit. Actually looking at her kit, it's not even that large a number of things that she can do and there's counterplay in her mechanics: she can't stun if she's higher % health than you (she slows instead). It's just a strange mechanic that only makes sense in terms of what she does.

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Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
On top of that, she isn't readable as a design at all, she has some floating blade, pops out random blades with her ultimate, has a 'stun for the sake of a stun' in her kit aswell as a 'slow for the sake of a slow' - Irelia could potentially be one of the hardest characters to read as barely anything is relevant to her as a character, there's nothing she tells you from looking at her splash art besides from: 'Well she has a pretty face, but I think she's violent aswell.'
Actually she has a stun so that she can do her role. She's significantly less effective without a stun. In fact (if played correctly) she will never slow. The slow is actually a punishment for not using her stun correctly.

Otherwise, how she looks in splash art is irrelevant to the discuss of play styles. However, her splash art typically doesn't portray her according to her actually lore. She's not the only champion that has this issue. It's a rather common occurance really.

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Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Maybe you like to think Irelia has a kit/unique playstyle of her own (wich obviously she does have, especially in terms of her ultimate and Q mechanic wich I find very fun, hopping from one minion to another onto your lane opponent is immensely fun) - but in our opinion she's no more than a character who has random abilities slapped onto her that do work well together, but are WAY too much and barely provide a distinctive playstyle to actually be countered well.
She's a tanky melee assassin/carry. While it's common to be an assassin, she's one of the few melee carries that actually can function quite well regardless of the Elo. This is because she's strong early (and can be placed solo top or jungle because of this) and scales into late game quite well (which most assassins tend not to - the best example of this would be LeBlanc).

Her play style is therefore a cross between carrying and assassination. It's an interesting but broken play style.

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Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Irelia is kind of a big deal/vague problem, so I think I'll provide more specific examples of why the more distinctive a playstyle is the more counterplay there is to it.
k.

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Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
We've discussed Heimerdinger in this OP and our previous post in more detail - his two 'generic mage abilities' in combination with his turrets is imbalance through design, not just through numbers.
Wouldn't say imbalanced actually. He's just good at his role. To be honest he's the only mage that's good at destroying towers. Maybe Zyra, but I haven't got her yet, so who knows?

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Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
On top of that, as we've provided a Heimerdinger Redesign, we don't really think he is defined as an Inventor, he could be more playing like an Inventor so this Redesign completely focuses on that in his kit, making him more reliant on inventions (in, fact 3 out of 4 abilities are now and invention), making the counterplay to him clear as day while getting rid of the extremely toxic/imbalance in his kit: the fact how he can completely screw you over with grenades and rockets and when you actually decide to go in he'll hit even harder with his turrets.
Not really relevant to his play style. In fact, the changes you suggest would put him in an entirely new play style. Not against it - not for it. It would be a different champion.

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Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
As said in the OP, he's currently more than a engineer that ones to be a mage rather than a real inventor and as long as he has these 'magish' abilities, Riot will have a hard time balancing him.
I don't know if I agree with that. I think the problem with Heimer is his play style. He's designed to destroy towers. That means if he kills you in his lane he'll take your tower. Normally if you lose your lane you don't always lose your tower. That's alot more punishment then normally would happen.

Furthermore since he's good at destroying objectives he's fundamentally designed to win the games regardless of team fights. It's not really a fun way to lose. Similar to Master Yi Backdooring. Therefore I would argue it's toxic.

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Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Really want to lay an emphasis here - regardless of Heimerdinger's current state, as I think we both approve of the fact it's pretty messed up/imbalanced being either OP or UP, but winning your lane and stomping afterwards should be just fine.
Don't agree. Winning your lane is fine. Winning your lane that you win the game unless everyone abandon's their lane to come stop you is broken.

He's essentially designed to win regardless of his team mates. Only he doesn't really need farm to do it. Also: he farms well but can't do anything with it. Which is just frustrating. It's a side note but it's important to me.

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Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
I think current (AD bruiser) Nidalee (regardless of her living up to her theme enough) is a good example of this. She's a good splitpusher and lane bully but is known for very very weak teamfighting, forcing teamfights all the time is pretty dang effective when playing against a Nidalee toplane, she completely melts in a fight, is very vulnerable to CC and gets kited quite often, now that's good, it would be imbalanced if Nidalee splitpushes aswell as she teamfights, as then she wouldn't have a very drastic weakness.
Heimer can destroy towers while he's at his nexus healing. Discuss.

There's literally no risk to destroying towers with Heimer in this game at the moment. That's actually pretty broken.

Nids is nids. While her movement speed helps her split push, she's not like shen who can split push and ultimate straight back into team fights. There's nothing stopping you from running over and smashing nids dead while she split pushes. Heimer can promote a minion. get it to tank the tower, drop to turrets and recall back to base and be gone before you can get there. Do that a couple of times and your tower is gone. It's really frustrating. It's also not alot of fun for heimer or the players playing against him.

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Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
If she wins her lane however and ends up 5/0 before she joins a teamfight - no wonder she'll be able to actually be effective in teamfights.
It's one of those things. It's actually true of alot of different champions. Elise being a prime example.

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Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Much like there is plenty of stuff you can do against current TF: ward, so you see where he's walking up to before he actually can ult, don't push your lane/don't wander alone.
limited range on his ultimate early game though. Also, his auto attack range is low too (if you build him AD carry). On the side note: I'd prefer if TF was pushed towards a AD carry/assassin play style rather than the wierd mix of AP and AD he seems to be on his skills at the moment.

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Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
The counterplay is clear as day and the strength of ganking and utility TF provides for his team is a reason to sometimes pick him over a typical 'teamfighting mage' such as Cassiopea, Orianna or Karthus - this means TF sacrifices some strength in teamfighting while he has stronger mappresence/ganking power than other mages, if he gets fed however (wich counts for ever champion getting fed) he'll have way more impact on the game - even in teamfights.
I dunno. he's got reasonably strong single target damage if built AD carry. It just that for wierd reasons he scales on wierd combinations. I feel like he never quite syngerizes well with items regardless of how he's built. Still, I can't say I've tried every combination but still, it's problematic (imo). Has nothing to with play styles though except as a general comment on the fact that I dislike the fact that all the old champions seems to be designed ot be hybrids for reasons I don't really get.

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Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
I actually think right now they did a pretty good job with her this patch - previously I think she was WAY to rewarding for the little amount you had to do in order to get a kill. In brought her into a stage where she was not only good at roaming but also great at teamfighting as getting level 6 meant like a guarenteed double kill (heck on all of the featured solomid guides before DFG was nerfed 'rush this item, get 6, walk up to lane opponent, pop cooldowns, you've got a kill)
Eve? oh. I dunno. it's one of those things. She'll always be problematic at low Elo's because she's permanently stealthed. The fact that she turns visible when she gets close to champions is interesting yet, I feel it encourages the wrong play style with Eve. She's now a scout champion. Perhaps the only one other than Teemo in the game right now. She should really be an assassin not a scout. I'm sure you could say I'm just arguing semantics I suppose. However I feel there's quite a big difference.

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Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
I think they did a pretty good job now - she's more reliant on her playstyle wich is roaming but she has to play smart instead of 'if i walk here im going to get kills guarenteed' and then IF she manages to snowball, wich is way harder right now, she actually gets rewarded to contribute to teamfights more effectively.
Dunno, if I agree. I feel it's one of those issues that will come back when players work out how to play Eve more effectively with the changes. Having a scout who undetectable in the early game (normally) is quite a large advantage that's difficult to balance around. It's the keystone of Eve's play style but it's almost impossible to balance.

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Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Like Pantheon currently ? A manly Spartan that doesn't really play like a manly spartan as he throws spears from a distance like a p*ssy while there is no counterplay to him ? I suggest you read the redesign as ItemsGuy made his playstyle/kit fit his theme even better getting rid of the no-counterplay.
That's actually more a thematic problem than a play style issue since it's in theme with Spartan warriors and how they fought. He's a spartan based champion, just be glad Riot was wise enough to make his base skin white.

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Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Like current Trundle ultimate is not only not readable right now but also has ZERO counterplay apart from 'if you are in range you'll eat this spell' ? Trundle Redesign has minor changes laying a better emphasis on being a nasty troll, improving his theming playstyle, readability and counterplay along the way.
Imo, Trundle is awful, it's not so much his play style, it's the fact that I don't find him fun to play. It's not even his theme, which is fine. Or his appearance which is again fine. He' s just not fun to play. Doesn't help that he's rather buggy as well.

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Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Like current Malphite is less problematic then the Redesign Malphite ? Where currently the counterplay is: 'initiate before this guy does'
Malphite is currently typically an anti-carry. That means he's only really great againt AD carries (if built how I think the current meta builds him). Don't get me wrong, he's all around good, he's just really great against AD carries.

Having said that Malphite's problem is that he's actually three different play styles in one depending on how you build him. He can be tanky anti-carry. He does this quite well. He can actually be built as a tanky AD carry. Never seen this as effectively but I'm told it's quite laugh out loud worthy when it works. He can also be built as a tanky AP bruiser. Of which I find annoying (I think the two other builds are probably better imo).

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Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Like current Taric provides more counterplay than Taric Redesign ? Where current Taric stuns someone guarenteed with little counterplay besides 'if you are in range of this ability you'll get stunned'
I think the travel time of the stun provides the counter play. There's alot you can do in lane against that. Actually I think the projectile speed on his stun should be decreased (but that's probably just me) and wouldn't really effect his play style much.

Meanwhile, Taric is boring (imo). That's a bigger issue (imo). He's not really an active champion and I feel like all champions should be doing "something" more than what Taric seems to. Plus gems are outrageous, truly, truly outrageous.

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Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Like current Olaf provides more counterplay than Olaf Redesign ? Where currently Olaf can ghost ult in and there's NOTHING you can do to stop him, potentially killing atleast 2 people of your team in small amounts of time ?
Olaf is also another example of a Tanky AD carry rather than a Tanky AD bruiser. It's actually really interesting. Since I feel like it's one of the directions they could have taken Master Yi (assuming he lost most of his insane steroids) but didn't.

Having said that, Olaf's strength currently has nothing to do with his play style but rather the fact that he scales on HP and how well he uses some of the new items.

Black Cleaver comes to mind.

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Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
I'd really like it if you could checkout those redesigns; Taric, Trundle, Panteon, Malphite, Olaf - they all have changes to improve theming in terms of playstyle and readability while providing WAY more counterplay.

I agree on some champions or Redesigns - they may look extremely tricky where you are either doubting if they are OP or unreliable, but they can be perfectly balanced (TF and Shaco being some good examples, eventhough they have quite a history in terms of balance)
k

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Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
The more distinctive a theming playstyle is, the more counterplay there is to it, fact. I bolded 'theming' there as Irelia is not an example of this - she doesn't have a playstyle that is relevant to her as a character, she may have a defined playstyle in terms of 'Assasin bruiser that dunks on people and then autoattacks them with true damage' - this is not themed and therefore is not only extremely hard to read, it barely provides counterplay. It's not a theming playstyle.
Her playstyle is completely determined by her "role" rather than her character. I agree that it's not a theming play style. That's entirely a valid point with Irelia. She's a champion designed for a role with slapped together background.

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Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
We never said this. Infact, we agree - a champion that is well-themed in terms of abilities and visual appearance and artwork (making the champion extremely readable) - while providing counterplay would be a extremely good champion.
k.

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Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Thresh says hi.

Theming: Check, throught abilities, visual appearance and lore this guy reflects a typical 'jailer playstyle', enriching the player's experience of actually playing that character.
Haven't played him yet, or played against him yet. Seriously, I'm actually surprised by that too. Meanwhile, Jarvan IV is still weeping in a corner.

having said all that, it's very very early on. It's differicult to tell how he'll actually go in the game within the first week. Give it a few months and get back to him. I'm somewhat concerned by the stats I've been reading on him. I'm not entirely sure how I feel about him. It's something I'll ponder when I get to play against him at some point.

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Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
I'ma give you some time aswell, please take a look at the Redesigns if asked you to check out, providing some solid examples of how the more distinctive a playstyle is, the more counterplay there is to it.

EDIT: My apologies for ItemsGuy here - he did already mention how he does not like to 'talk down people' though he sometimes just really does not have the patience or energy to stay humble, everything he says over there is legit it just might sound a bit unfriendly, still asking you to read my comment post here above aswell dude

EDIT2: I'm not sure if you'll be convinced by this or not, but if you do or don't, would be awesome if you could tell us, either saying you agree and get our reasoning now or continue'ing the discussing.
It's late and I'm tired. I'll get back to this later. Sorry about the typos but i did want to get back to you before I slept. But first: item Guy. Need to use another post. Stupid letter limit. Why does Riot hate my long posts?


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Whyumai

Senior Member

01-19-2013

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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
UPDATE: Akali redesign LITE page, ultimate description fixed for clarity in terms of mechanics. I forget sometimes that not everyone can read minds!
k.

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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Except you're incorrect there, as well. You're assuming that every champion that faces off against him has equal or less range than he does, and is incapable of creating a gap between them after Darius lands his pull. In-lane, if you have the advantage of range against them, you can push that as hard as you can--meaning Darius would have to essentially jump through hoops or ask for a jungler's help if he wants to deal with you. If you're left at melee range (Riven, Irelia, etc.), you can simply let him push his lane by baiting out his Q every 9 seconds, and then have your jungler gank and help you kill him because he has no escape mechanics (he's all about keeping enemies near him--a defined strength--and is thus not too good at disengaging--a defined weakness).
The problem here is the location of the fight is set: You will fight @ the minions. But, darius can actually extend his range by moving into your brush (assuming you're top) near the mid point of the lane. This extends his range further. Remember that most auto attack range isn't actually that far.

If you mean champions with pokes. Then it's typically an issue of whether or not he can avoid your pokes or not. Note at no time does Darius actually have to use his Q. In fact, he has higher threat if he doesn't use his Q. He just sits there farming or zoning you out so you can't even get Xp. Depending on the champion he's playing against, till he's high enough level to stomp you (assuming no outside influenece such as junglers). Although, getting junglers to gank his lane is actually in his favour as well, long as he's been careful. Since, if the jungler doesn't force him out of lane or kill him, the jungler will be behind. This is not a QQ about Darius btw, it's just his play style. He dominates. That's what he does in lane.

I'm just glad he's not a great jungler. Seriously, that would be frightening.

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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Outside of lane, you can rely on your teammates (considering LoL is a team game, although if you think that Darius is overpowered or lacks counterplay, you may not have realized that yet) to use their range and CC to keep Darius at bay, since he can't deal with being kited and if he misses his pull, he's pretty much useless until it's back up again.
It's not so much that he lacks counter play (actually i stated in my post actual counters to Darius - if you use the fundamental ideas I discuss in my post you can beat Darius with a number of other champions) it's that it's harder to counter Darius than actually play Darius while forcing the lane phase to be about Darius rather than whoever he's playing against. It's a typical melee issue: since Melee champions are all about getting into "range" once they are in range they typically dominate whoever they are up against. Darius is just more tuned to this. it's not even an issue that is unique to Darius. It's a pretty common Melee issue. They must get into range and then they will stomp. So the play tends to revolve around keeping them out of range rather than anything else. It's becomes all about the melee champion. If you look at Brand, playing against Brand is about avoiding his abilities (not just one, all three of his basic abilities before level 6 and how they work together) while trying to force him into your abilities (assuming it's two mages facing off against each other - say Veigar vs Brand). There's back and forth play - Brand tries to hit his spells, Veigar tries to hit his spells and back and forth it goes. With Darius it's all about Darius. Brand against Darius is Brand staying out of Darius's range while poking. There's no more play in the lane than that. If Darius gets Brand typically Brand is dead.

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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
We're not talking about "hard-counters" here--we're talking about counterplay, not counter by design. Darius has very defined and specific weaknesses that are innate to his kit's design and his playstyle--very low mobility, no ability to disengage, complete lack of ranged components or sustain, reliance on longer engagements for damage output (whereas most champs can just blow their abilities at full power right from the get-go), and susceptibility to soft crowd control. Counterplay against Darius would involve using either your own strengths or the strengths of your allies to push these weaknesses and make Darius less effective overall. That's how counterplay works (although it isn't nearly as defined with most champions--another thing I try to fix--so you may not have been able to spot it).
Actually, blowing all their abilities at the get go is a mage thing. Most tanky AD bruisers that relay on autoattacks aren't this way. Irelia comes to mind.

Actually, that's the problem. Darius is all about using Darius's weakness against him. It's actually not about your strengths at all. There's a problem there.

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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Incorrect. Darius has to contend with the fact that he has very strong weaknesses (no range, no sustain, low mobility, reliance on drawn-out fights, inability to disengage) and must work around those in order to be effective in-lane. While to you it might look like "oh hurr durr I just press Q whenever it's up and hook my lane opponent and then instant pentakill once I hit 6," Darius is less about technical skill and more about trying to get situations to work in his favor (which in Darius's case involves closing the gap between you and him and keeping it minimal for as long as possible).
I don't agree. Honestly from both sides of the fence, Darius doesn't take that much skill. He's not a high skill champion. There's not a huge difference between a great Darius an a good Darius (imo).

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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
You just contradicted yourself in your own argument. The more defined the strengths are (potency in close-range, potency in drawn-out fights, sticking power), the more defined the weaknesses are in turn (helplessness at longer range, significantly less power in short trades, lack self-moving gap-closers or other mobility). Your inability to capitalize on these weaknesses is only a testament to your lack of competence as a player, not to any sort of flaw in design. In other words, it's your fault for not hitting that huge glowing hemisphere on that final boss's back--instead opting to keep on trying to attack them from the front and then complaining loudly when its health bar isn't going down.
I'd like to think it's a difference of opinion. But perhaps you are right, perhaps Darius is the most overally complicated and high skill required champion in the game of League of Legends at this time. Assumingly enough, that's the only response that's actually going to work. Pretty sure that's not true though.

This isn't about Darius being OP or about how Darius is designed it's about the play style. He's all in because that's how he's meant to be. If he gets to go all in he usually wins. Therefore it's all about trying to make sure he can't go all in. That's the problem. it's all about Darius.

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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
This sentence made my eyes bleed--there's absolutely nothing distinctive about her playstyle and is by far the blandest, most flavorless bruiser in the League. She was not defined around a specific theme or playstyle, but rather as a direct counter to the "everyone is an ADC" metagame that was prevalent around her release and by far one of Riot's greatest mistakes in terms of champion design.
To be honest that's more a matter of preference. Regardless of whether it's the play style for you, it actually is distinct. Personal preferences aside, you don't actually have a point other than you don't like it.

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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
It's the fact that she can do so much while still being only one champion. It's the same deal with Jayce and Lee Sin, really.
Jayce and Lee Sin, yes. Actually, both are problematic for different reasons but i do agree they can do alot. Irelia can't (in comparison) it's just that Irelia has passive strength (which is a entirely separate issue).

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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Instead of being based around a solid theme and playstyle? This is where his problem lies.
Disagree. He's actually got a solid play style at the moment.

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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Except not really--the only real "turle-y" part of his playstyle lies in his turrets, and they're laughably weak because their power is limited by the existence of his other two ranged multi-target/AoE nukes.
His turrets and his stun. The reason you can't invade his turrets isn't just the damage it's the stun. He uses his rockets to poke from his turtle position. The play style does work as a turtle style. Wish he had a "real" ultimate though.

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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Because he falls into the "doing too many things" category. He's not defined, which is the problem. He has (had, rather) strong fortification and defensive ability in his turrets, as well as the independent aggressive poke damage of his 'nades and rockets. THAT's why he has been nerfed to the ground, and why release Heimer is something that people don't like to think about. He wasn't defined around his turrets, they were just a lot of extra stuff he had alongside his regular mage abilities. And he'll never be as strong as he could be as long as those mage abilities are still intact.
I do not agree as above. His abilities are all focused around holding a single point till he can crush the enemies tower in his lane.

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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Except at that point he is incredibly overextended and could be readily instagibbed by a gank. He has no escape mechanisms, piss-poor survivability, and his only source of crowd control is unreliable at best. I'm starting to doubt whether I should continue to take your claims seriously, because you don't seem to think very much about things before you say them (and have therefore placed the burden of thinking and saying these things onto me).
Look. it's fine. This is one of those part where you say you can't hit with his stun. That's fine. I get that. It could be that I'm bad for suggesting that it's possible to reliably hit with a skill shot. it could be that you're bad because you can't hit with a skill shot. It's pointless to argue. It's all about how the play style works, not if you have enough skill to actually pull it off. BtW, killing heimer isn't actually the bad thing about Heimer. The bad thing about Heimer is that his turrets die to accidental AoE damage while someone is trying to gank him so Heimer doesn't actually get to deal the damage that he should be dealing. It's pretty amusing when that happens. That's a side issue though. It's also part of the reason why I feel Heimer is currently forced into a pushing tower role rather than doing something actually more fun. Like. I dunno. Killing champions.


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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
The problem with Eve (and champs with global ults, like TF and Pantheon) is not that they're too defined, but rather that all other champions are not defined enough. They have very specific, particular strengths (somewhat mitigated with Eve, however, as with the rework of her ult she actually has a fair amount of teamfighting power on her end--a bad move on Riot's part, as the sort of "high speed/kiting assassin" has a good feel to it and could be balanced otherwise), which makes them stick out like a sore thumb in a crowd of champions that fulfill their roles in very generic and undefined ways.
It's one of those things where you say stuff in a mean and hurtful manner and I try to remind you that the inverse is actually true as well. Think about it.

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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Interesting, this is exactly what I've been thinking in regards to your understanding of the subject. I hate to talk down to people, but you just seem like you aren't getting some of the fundamental aspects at play, here. Of course, you may not have played this game as long as I have or look at it as critically as I do, but that doesn't excuse your unfounded attitude and arrogance about the matter.
I disagree. I feel while I'm biased towards my viewpoints (of course, they are mine after all) that doesn't mean I'm entirely wrong (or even entirely right - the chance that's I'm 100% right or wrong being extremely unlikely). Therefore with debate will come a wider understanding of the issues. While you seem to firmly believe that you have no bias but rather you are coming to this conclusion from Sherlock Holmesian deductive powers and that what you think must entirely be right or the world will explode or something else that's suitably dire (I'm sure). Gotta wonder if Holmesian is spelt right.

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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
You've said this multiple times by this point, but haven't given any proper reasoning behind it. What about a champion being more defined makes them more "problematic"? The fact that they have incredibly readable strengths and weaknesses? The fact that understanding these strengths and weaknesses can help you understand both how to play them and how to counterplay them? The fact that, if every champion were well-defined and had their own special something to bring to the role that they fill would make every champion competitively viable, instead of having all champions within a certain role trying to pretty much do the same exact thing, with different levels of effectiveness (Heim not being able to mage as hard as other mages because he still has that element of "Revered Inventor" that doesn't fall in-line with what a generic mage is and should be capable of)? Please, do tell.
Firsrtly, I guess the problem here is i'm talking about play style (which is about how I understand the champions to be played), and you're talking about what could potentially happen in a game with these champions. It's like you think this is a Darius QQ. It's really not. I'm not saying he's OP. It's not actually important to me. It's about the play in the lane that Darius is in.

Anyway, I'm sure it's possible that Darius could be ganked by a jungler fifty millionity times in a match. Or perhaps not at all. That doesn't actually change the inherent play style of Darius at all. Darius will be played in a certain style which he is designed around to be played as. While this might be adjusted somewhat he's not suddenly going to massive change the play style of the champion because that player is going badly. All things being equal this doesn't mean he's OP or not. It's about how he's played and the ideas around which his play style is based around. I'm not saying he's OP. I'm talking about the play in a lane with Darius and his play style. I'm not taking your baby away. it's not personal. Step down off the ledge. We need the wood.

Secondly, Heimer does bring something new and unique to the table. He's the tower pusher mage. He's still bad because he's the tower pusher mage. That's why he's bad. I'm serious here. That's the reason.



In no particular order and replying in kind (because i'm tired):
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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
-More defined strengths (meaning there is a reason to play this champion over X champion within the same role, and a reason to play X champion over this champion as well--nothing is tiered because every champion excels equally at their own thing and doesn't try to be anyone else)
Best Itemization champion wins. Typically this is the case in competitive play. it's why when you look at a tournament and the champions that were used it tends to be alot of the same ones. Those ones tend to have ability sets that work well with the currently strong items. On a side note: Suck it Irelia, Morello finally worked out how to really nerf you.

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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
-More defined weaknesses (meaning counterplay is easily accessible and easily understood, as opposed to simply "don't get hit by X ability" or "don't let them farm" or "wait for them to fall off after 20 minutes")
Greater definition of weakness isn't always a great thing. Look at Heimer. Kill Turrets. Giggle while he runs. Seriously, he runs oddly. I have defined his weakness and it's pretty amusing.

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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
-Greater diversity (in terms of roster and team compositions--all champions fitting into either Defensive, Aggressive, or Control-based play instead of all trying to do the same thing and playing the same game every time regardless of which champions are in play)
Greater Diversity by having three roles for everyone in maps where the maximum players is 5 for each team. Yes, I'm taking what you said out of context and making it sound nothing like what you meant. I know, it's awful isn't it?

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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
-More dynamic flow (all of a champion's abilities work towards a common goal instead of just being a hodge-podge of things they can use to fulfill their role--Irelia is a perfect example of why this is an awful thing to have)
Btw: all of Irelia's abilities work together when used properly. She's actually designed to be used in a certain manner that's why her skills are the way they are. I honestly believe Irelia is designed around her play style. Meh background, but it all works because it's all there. That's part of why it's hard to balance because Irelia needs what she has to work according to her designed play style. It's all about play style with Irelia it's why I mentioned Irelia first. She's the poster child for play style. That sounds dirty. Anyway, Irelia actually does have a "dynamic flow" in regards to her abilities. Each work into one another but not all at once. Not in the order I would have actually thought (from just reading her skill descriptions) either, but, hey, go figure. That's an entirely different issue though.

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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
-An enriched experience (playing Olaf, for example, is a much different experience from playing Shaco--both are very well-defined and thematically juicy champions, and offers more to the player than simply "oh with this champion you have to use these abilities in this order and buy these items")
Oh man, really > yeah. Generic Viking Guy is "TOTES" different to Generic Evil Clown Guy.

Honestly: it's a matter of prespective. You say that Heimer is bad because he's a generic mage type champion with turrets. Other players will tell you to leave their inventor alone!!!! (insert chris crocker picture here). Again, what you consider generic is probably really cool and characterful to other players. Meanwhile, generic viking guy throws axes & generic evil clown guy throws shivs and you love them; Generic engineer mage guy throws wrenches and he's bad. Poor Heimer.

Either way it's not really about play styles though, is it? I mean, you compared Olaf who's not an assassin to Shaco who is. They have entirely different styles of play. Frankly if i picked any AD bruiser and compared them to an assassin they are going to have entirely different styles of play. You're actually comparing the actual character of the champions and frankly: Heimer has character but you think he's bad. Since he makes all his stuff on the battlefield from what he can find, he's actually pretty impressive (imo). He might suck, but, he's got character.

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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
What exactly is bad about this again?
I think it clearly lacks rainbows. This is bad. On a more serious response, it's one of those things. It's very much a personal perspective of how each champion is that will determine how each champion needs to be changed according to the matrix that you seem to be presenting. Invariably that's champion balance and design I suppose. Since each member of that team has to make decisions based on biased opinions on certain elements and their overall importance however I also feel some of the terms are clearly lacking in definition. "Dynamic flow" sound great, except, Irelia actually is entirely based around her play style. That's how they made her. You can argue that she's not actually based around a theme. And I'll grant you that being true (imo - I can't say for sure). Certainly each and every one of her (remembering she only has 4 so it's not like it was rocket science to begin with) abilities are based enabling her play style.


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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
"Better" here means fulfilling the bullet points I've mentioned above. The champions that fulfill this ideal quality and coherency of kit and playstyle are the vast minority at the moment, but that doesn't make what they do any less awesome. It's not subjective at all--it can be broken into a science, and, in fact, that's exactly what I've done.

If you still have any questions, I'll be back in about half an hour. This has kept me from breakfast for long enough.
Tired. Sleep. Bullet points weren't actually bullets so I'm somewhat disappointed. Dashes aren't the same. Go Advanced, Man! Explore your options!


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-19-2013

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Originally Posted by Whyumai View Post
I'm going to reply to this post first, then itemguy's reply next although item replied first, I feel it's more appropriate to reply first to the person I was replying to first.
Thank you - seems fair :)

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Concerning Darius
As I said, he could use some changes.

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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
As a side note: what Peri said is true, regarding Darius. I'd like to push his playstyle as far as it can go--requiring him to stay in combat longer to reach "full" effectiveness, but rewarding it even more. His Innate would be weaker per stack but stack higher (and perhaps last longer), his Q might apply two stacks at its sweetspot to further reward players for landing it (instead of mashing Q mindlessly) and make him more potent in teamfights--or perhaps have it spread Hemo stacks to adjacent targets, etc.

Not sure if I'd agree with the whole "his slow doesn't get reduced cooldown with stacks" thing--that's part of what really allows him to ramp up in longer fights and grants him the sticking power he desperately needs to stay relevant and capitalize on his short-range power, but if the overall cooldown were reduced on top of having increased effects with Hemo stacks (or perhaps applying 2)--the movespeed slow and the attackspeed slow, so duels can be favorable for him--then I can see it as being a thing that isn't generally unsatisfying to use.

The only real problem I'd have with his ult only being full power at a higher level of stacks is that, like Morello said, you wouldn't be getting those full stacks in EVERY fight and wouldn't always be using your ultimate at max stacks (sometimes needing to blow it sooner, especially in closer fights)--because the two values that are available in the tooltip are its base damage and it's maximum damage, and knowing these is paramount to being able to ult as early as possible while also getting the reset.

This could be easily fixed, though--if that "double axes" mark that currently appears at 5 stacks also appeared/appeared instead when an enemy's health where at the threshhold where your ultimate would kill them--so if you had 7 stacks and your ult would kill them at that point, then you could pop it and have things done with. It also removes any arbitrary, depth-less skill requirement to the execution (heh) of the ability, since focusing on memorizing values and keeping an eye on the enemy health bar in the top left corner of the screen takes away from the game, and that's not a good thing.
:)

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Hence why I disagree with your assertion.
Like I've said below my post - we are talking about theming playstyles, not 'random playstyles' - as Irelia has a random playstyle, so obviously you would disagree with our assertion if you'd think we were talking random playstyles, but I think I've clarified enough in the previous post.

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Interestingly enough, Jayce, Elise, Nidalee, all have more in their kit. Actually looking at her kit, it's not even that large a number of things that she can do and there's counterplay in her mechanics: she can't stun if she's higher % health than you (she slows instead). It's just a strange mechanic that only makes sense in terms of what she does.
Having more abilities/in your kit isn't nessecarily bad and it's good to have abilities sync with eachother - as long as it fits and makes sense themetically.

As you say 'it's a strange needlessly added mechanic to make her abilities flow' - it isn't relevant to Irelia as a character, hence we like to think Irelia is one messed up design both themetically and in terms of balance, as it's imbalanced, like you said: It's an interesting but broken play style. - yes. And it's even worse because it doesn't make sense in terms of theming, it isn't relevant to her character at all.

Pretty much like Jayce aswell, his entire background revolves around being the manly superhero - his kit ? Oh, forget about the entire superhero thingy, burden of knowledge incoming: 'Hey guys this is Jayce, he is kind of a super hero, but you should forget about that immediately because he doesn't really reflect that in gameplay - instead, look at his weapon, it's half cannon half hammer, now here is the assignment for tomorrow: read his tooltips and memorize all his abilities as we simply don't give two f*cks of how Jayce as a champion helps you literally with nothing - we've slapped some weapon and abilities onto Jayce and call it a champion. Have a nice day, do your homework !'

I like the half-cannon, half-hammer thingy, but it is NOT readable, it makes no sense and puts a higher level of 'burden of knowledge' on people compared to other champions - let's say thresh: a dude that has a very readable kit revolving around a specific unique playstyle, being a jailer.

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Actually she has a stun so that she can do her role. She's significantly less effective without a stun. In fact (if played correctly) she will never slow. The slow is actually a punishment for not using her stun correctly.
Needlessly added character, not themetically tied to anything, therefore it doesn't make sense and is burden of knowledge, aka bad.
Let me use TF as a good unified champion: his playstyle in a game fits themetically - it fits perfectly, it's about responding and playing/selecting his card after he has analyzed the current situation of the game.

"Never lost a fair game... or played one." - Twisted Fate

TF's theme and playstyle match A LOT - He analyzes a situation (looking at the opponents hand) and then plays his hand, hence 'Pick A Card' is such a cool ability : P

He basically turns stuff into his favour, looking at the opponent's hand before actually doing something.

TF has the option of picking gold card, like Irelia can have a stun. Then why is Gold Card good and why is Irelia's stun bad ? Because Gold Card fits themetically and encourages Twisted Fate's playstyle of a Ganking Mage, while Irelia's stun is needlessly added for the sake of having her abilities work well together, it makes no sense. - I think if said enough :P

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Otherwise, how she looks in splash art is irrelevant to the discuss of play styles. However, her splash art typically doesn't portray her according to her actually lore. She's not the only champion that has this issue. It's a rather common occurance really
.

Watch the champion retrospective: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs1yD8m2fvE

They all want to have artwork reflect the entire character/kit of the champion - Irelia is completely messed up as it tells you nothing.

Annie is less messy as Tibbers is on the splash art and you get she's all about fire, but it's still a mess:

Looking at Annie's splash art you wouldn't expect this girl to do all the damage - you get this sadistic twisted child has something to do with the huge demonic flaming bear, but it's a kind of a watered down experience of playing Annie seeing that Tibbers is of little relevance to her kit on top of all the problems she has along with that: her needless 'stun for the sake of stun' mechanic and so forth.

Hence Annie Redesign has the ultimate 'Big Daddy - Little Sister playstyle' wich is not only cool in terms of finally having a pet champion that has been asked for for such a long time now, it also makes sense themetically !

Not really surprised by all the themetic and the anti-counterplay flaws Annie currently has, Annie is really old.

Rammus ? I guess you'd like to use him as an example afterwards, after watching the video, but I've discussed him in the OP. His Q and W would really match his splash art, but when it comes to his E and R it all goes wrong, we don't know why nor do we know how Rammus is actually taunting people, we don't know how or why he makes the ground crumble and shake around him, it is not relevant to him as a character and therefore waters down the expierence of the ultimate 'rolling armordillo' playstyle.

On top of that, Rammus's taunt barely involves counterplay as 'this guy will taunt you for 3 seconds if you are in range, u mad ?'

You can safely trust us, they will NEVER come out with such devastating CC or damage abilities ever again (non-ultimate abilities atleast) that are guarenteed to hit/cc if you are in range - barely providing counterplay.

Yorick was the oldest champion released June/july that still had this (Morello has said multiple times how he literally freakin' hates Yorick altogether, he likes to think he is one of the biggest mistakes they have made - we most certainly agree, his entire kit is stupid and anti-fun, it has little depth and there is barely anything the opponent can do against the character) - Morello also dislikes and regrets Vladimir in his current state, he does not like him for the same reasons. He thinks they are bad designs.


She's a tanky melee assassin/carry. While it's common to be an assassin, she's one of the few melee carries that actually can function quite well regardless of the Elo. This is because she's strong early (and can be placed solo top or jungle because of this) and scales into late game quite well (which most assassins tend not to - the best example of this would be LeBlanc).

Her play style is therefore a cross between carrying and assassination. It's an interesting but broken play style.

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Wouldn't say imbalanced actually. He's just good at his role. To be honest he's the only mage that's good at destroying towers. Maybe Zyra, but I haven't got her yet, so who knows?
We've discussed Heimderdinger in our OP and in our previous thread in detail - as long as he has two generic mage abilities not only will this water his experience down as an inventor, Riot will have a hard time balancing him.

It's for the best to get rid of these abilities in terms of counterplay and for him as a character.

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Not really relevant to his play style. In fact, the changes you suggest would put him in an entirely new play style. Not against it - not for it. It would be a different champion.
ItemsGuy didn't Redesign to make champions live up to their same playstyle, he tried to fit them themetically in terms of readability and playstyle while providing as much counterplay as he could and indeed - Heimerdinger would be a different champion yet he is finally the Inventor he could have been with this Redesign. The changes are drastic indeed, hence we say all of these suggestions would fit better for a possible 'LoL 2' - Morello has indirectly approved of this.


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I don't know if I agree with that. I think the problem with Heimer is his play style. He's designed to destroy towers. That means if he kills you in his lane he'll take your tower. Normally if you lose your lane you don't always lose your tower. That's alot more punishment then normally would happen.
He's not designed to destroy towers - it just happens his kit is really good at doing that as besides that he still has insane good poking abilities with his rockets and grenades, that's what kills him, that's the reason he has always been either UP or OP. His kit is too good at too many things unless they are nerfed to a level where he is underpowered aka Jayce Syndrome, aka Lee Sin syndrome, aka Irelia Syndrome.

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Furthermore since he's good at destroying objectives he's fundamentally designed to win the games regardless of team fights. It's not really a fun way to lose. Similar to Master Yi Backdooring. Therefore I would argue it's toxic.
Currently it is toxic because there aren't solid counters to these pushing strats, it's the reason all of the backdooring (TF ult especially) has been nerfed to prevent these strategies from being used as the majority of champions are designed to play the 'normal way', wich is 'let's kill the other team in a similar way of how they will try to kill us and then push for baron or towers.'

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Don't agree. Winning your lane is fine. Winning your lane that you win the game unless everyone abandon's their lane to come stop you is broken.
As explained above, it's because of the majority of champions doesn't really counter such a strategy therefore don't really belong in an environment where the majority can't do a whole lot about you splitpushing, like ItemsGuy said:
The problem with Eve (and champs with global ults, like TF and Pantheon) is not that they're too defined, but rather that all other champions are not defined enough. They have very specific, particular strengths (somewhat mitigated with Eve, however, as with the rework of her ult she actually has a fair amount of teamfighting power on her end--a bad move on Riot's part, as the sort of "high speed/kiting assassin" has a good feel to it and could be balanced otherwise), which makes them stick out like a sore thumb in a crowd of champions that fulfill their roles in very generic and undefined ways.

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Heimer can destroy towers while he's at his nexus healing. Discuss.

There's literally no risk to destroying towers with Heimer in this game at the moment. That's actually pretty broken.
They should find some balance here where you get rewarded for killing his inventions though they don't get killed so fast (Heimerdinger Redesign!) - right now it's broken because he is pretty immovable, he keeps you off his turrets with his two mage abilities, not only makes these abilities more relevant to him than his turrets (wich is the most iconic), watering the experience down of an Inventor but is also pretty f*cked as his turrets are weak and helpless without his two misplaced weird generic mage abilities, leaving his turrets in the dust.

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Eve? oh. I dunno. it's one of those things. She'll always be problematic at low Elo's because she's permanently stealthed. The fact that she turns visible when she gets close to champions is interesting yet, I feel it encourages the wrong play style with Eve. She's now a scout champion. Perhaps the only one other than Teemo in the game right now. She should really be an assassin not a scout. I'm sure you could say I'm just arguing semantics I suppose. However I feel there's quite a big difference.
I'd say she's an Assasin that strikes from stealth - Teemo is more of a scout, he literally scouts ahead and leaves a shroom granting some vision, if Teemo moves he does this to scout and drop a shroom, if Evelyn moves she moves because she wants to kill stuff from stealth - there's the difference.

PS: There will always be champions doing extremely well at low Elo ranges.

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Now, I'm pretty sure you are going to agree with all of the stuff I wrote above this, though respond if you want, now talking those suggested Redesigns, you haven't really said anything about them:

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That's actually more a thematic problem than a play style issue since it's in theme with Spartan warriors and how they fought.
Wait what ? It's a problem in both ways, in both theming/playstyle aswell as in terms of counterplay.
'You'll eat this spear because you are in range' is toxic and doesn't match the 'manly spartan theme'.

Now read the Redesign - I hope you realize Pantheon Redesign is as manly as he could ever be while being less toxic, providing more counterplay. (Obviously his current 'I stun you because I stun you' is bad aswell).


I hope you realize that the more distinctive a playstyle is the more counterplay there is to it.

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Imo, Trundle is awful, it's not so much his play style, it's the fact that I don't find him fun to play. It's not even his theme, which is fine. Or his appearance which is again fine. He' s just not fun to play. Doesn't help that he's rather buggy as well.
Sorry dude, but I slapped myself here and you didn't really say or do anything I asked you to do, just because you don't find him fun to play doesn't mean he can't be a better themetically unified champion while providing more counterplay.

I personally like Trundle a lot, his Q, W and E are very characteristic and make sense being a nasty ugly troll - hence he still has these abilities in the Redesign, but when it comes to his ult it has two problems;

Counterplay (you are eating this spell because you are in range of this spell)
Readability (God knows what this ability does - a filthy cloud around me, whadafuq is that supposed to mean ?)

Now take a look at Trundle's new ultimate in the Redesign, I hope you see this fits him better themetically, improving on the readability of Trundle while providing more counterplay.

I hope you realize that the more distinctive a playstyle is the more counterplay there is to it.


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Malphite
Read the Malphite Redesign aswell as the explanation under the malphite hotlink, you'll understand why he is very problematic right now and it has NOTHING to do wich options of items he can choose.

Especially the part of his ultimate is currently toxic, the counterplay: 'well i guess we should initiate before this guy does' - not really fair right ? Well read the Redesign.

I hope you realize that the more distinctive a playstyle is the more counterplay there is to it.


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I think the travel time of the stun provides the counter play. There's alot you can do in lane against that. Actually I think the projectile speed on his stun should be decreased (but that's probably just me) and wouldn't really effect his play style much.

Meanwhile, Taric is boring (imo). That's a bigger issue (imo). He's not really an active champion and I feel like all champions should be doing "something" more than what Taric seems to. Plus gems are outrageous, truly, truly outrageous.
The travel time is slow - but that only means the stun will hit after a delay, there's no way you can prevent the stun from actually hitting you if it is casted on you - that's toxic, there is no counterplay involved, there's just a slight delay on when you get hit.

I bolded the part where you say Taric is boring, we agree ! Read Taric Redesign, not only does he have a new E in place of his stun that provides more counterplay, he has way more depth and a defined 'Battle Medic' playstyle !

I completely agree - Taric is pretty dull, way too straightforward, very low skillcap.

I hope you realize that the more distinctive a playstyle is the more counterplay there is to it - concerning Taric's new E that makes a lot of sense in terms of theming.



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Olaf
Almost slapped myself here again - there's nothing wrong with his HP scalings, it's the fact he can tear through an entire team without you being able to do anything about it. Read the Redesign (only changes on his ult/Ragnarok)

I hope you realize that the more distinctive a playstyle is the more counterplay there is to it.


Note: 'I hope you realize that the more distinctive a playstyle is the more counterplay there is to it.' - this means that the more a playstyle is living up to the theme of the character, the more counterplay there is to it.

With the Redesigns Pantheon plays manlier, Malphite more of a moving rock with great force, Olaf more of a realistic berserker, Taric has way more depth and more interaction with his crystals - having a more defined battle medic playstyle along with it, Trundle gets to play more like a troll - all providing more counterplay than the amount of counterplay they currently provide.

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Her playstyle is completely determined by her "role" rather than her character. I agree that it's not a theming play style. That's entirely a valid point with Irelia. She's a champion designed for a role with slapped together background.
Thank you for understanding. Now our next point is that if you push theming (Malphite, Olaf primarely) you not only make the experience of playing that character more unique, more distinct, it also offers more counterplay.

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Thresh - it's very very early on. It's differicult to tell how he'll actually go in the game within the first week. Give it a few months and get back to him. I'm somewhat concerned by the stats I've been reading on him. I'm not entirely sure how I feel about him. It's something I'll ponder when I get to play against him at some point.
You should stop thinking about builds, stats, cooldowns, ratio's and all that stuff for one second. We aren't saying Thresh will be OP or UP or will be balanced, we are looking at him as a champion, how good he is designed.

His abilities all match his theme, therefore creating a theming playstyle that is extremely readable while providing enough counterplay. Regardless of how effective he'll turn out, he's extremely well designed.


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It's late and I'm tired. I'll get back to this later. Sorry about the typos but i did want to get back to you before I slept.
I hope you slept well - I'm excited for your response, I really hope you get to understand that the more attached a playstyle is to the theme of a character, the more counterplay it provides.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-19-2013

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Originally Posted by Whyumai View Post
It's very much a personal perspective of how each champion is that will determine how each champion needs to be changed according to the matrix that you seem to be presenting. Invariably that's champion balance and design I suppose. Since each member of that team has to make decisions based on biased opinions on certain elements and their overall importance however I also feel some of the terms are clearly lacking in definition. "Dynamic flow" sound great, except, Irelia actually is entirely based around her play style. That's how they made her. You can argue that she's not actually based around a theme. And I'll grant you that being true (imo - I can't say for sure). Certainly each and every one of her (remembering she only has 4 so it's not like it was rocket science to begin with) abilities are based enabling her play style.
Really wanted to lay an emphasis on something here, what we think as the perfect champion (and Riot has indirectly approved of this with all of the hotlinks we've provided in our OP) is a champion that fits this criteria:

-Unique 'Theming' playstyle, a kit/playstyle that creates a flavourful way of playing the character that is attached to theme so it makes sense and is relevant to the character, like Thresh is the Jailer with his jailer playstyle. Cool.

-Readability, abilities have to make sense or they put a larger burden of knowledge on players, this can very much be solved by living up to theme, as Thresh's ultimate is simply a prison - it makes sense and therefore is readable, relevant to him as a character and contributes to his unique playstyle.

-Depth: The perfect champion would have depth a high skill cap to enjoy the champion for a very long time, if not forever.

-Counterplay: Counterplay is detrimental to a game, this can also be done by theming as the more you push a theme the more the character will have defined strengths and weaknesses. (Morello approving of this with the countless of posts he has said he completely dislikes Yorick and Vladimir, for example).

So concerning Irelia, as you have agreed (you just said you weren't sure for 100%) - Irelia doesn't have a theming playstyle, therefore provides less counterplay, therefore is less readable. Suit yourself.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-19-2013

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Originally Posted by LastLaughLol View Post
Amazing thread, well thought out, and informative. Took a lot of effort, upvotes on all, thanks for this great thread.
I've roughly spent ~100 hours on all of these threads in total in terms of actually writing them, formatting, spending time in the comment section or heck even discussing the topic on skype with ItemsGuy.

Comments like this (including the comment of IronStylus) really makes it worth it dude - thank YOU !