Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? @Morello @Feralpony @IronStylus @Xypherous

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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by MastaSuker View Post
First of all good read.

Now if you make the nibble on Trundle for instance it will make him very much like Warwick. And trolls do actually steal Of course there might be a better animation and whatnot to help with that.

As for Burden of knowlege I think that the loading screen can be used more as an announcer type thing than what it is now. For instance the loading screen usually takes over 30 seconds so you can show major points about the champions you will be fighting against.

As far as depth of character goes I completely disagree. Champs such as Annie were important for me when I first started playing. This is a fireball, this is a firefield, and this is a teddy bear that kills people. I still play Annie from time to time but she is actually a very hard champion once you get to the point where people know to just go away when she laughs. Point is Lee Sin and Orianna are just not for everyone.
The problem is with Trundle ultimate is that it provides no counterplay at all and it wouldn't just look like warwick or you'd be telling me every surpression is the same.

With Trundle they take more damage and their resistances get lowered - he steals it, while the target is still able to move. It basically creates the 'get this guy off me before he eats my entire brain out' whereas with warwick all he's trying to do is keeping you in place, no more, no less.

Sidenote: ItemsGuy still wants to have some extremely low skill floor and fairly low skill cap aswell (wich would be something like Darius in the case) - for beginners.

Annie is hard ? No. I'm not going to argue over this further, yes she has a few tricks up her sleeve a good Annie would do and a bad Annie won't, but her skill cap is incredibly low.

Lee Sin and Orianna are champions with higher skill floor, not nessecarily a higher skill cap.


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Leblancster

Senior Member

01-25-2013

"-Leblanc, the Deciever.

Ask yourself - is she more known for her Q + R combo or is she known for being the ultimate deciever, someone that tricks you and acts with the art of surprise ?
Exactly - her Q + R combo, hence the well-known QQ such as 'omg wtf noob champ Q + R burst damage no skill' and so forth.

In our opinion, pretty sad for a champion to be known for a straightforward spellcombo instead of being known as the ultimate deciever (better themed and interesting playstyle) that she could have been. *Sigh*- the Monkey King makes more decieving plays and he's a freakin' monkey, not 'the Deciever'."

Obviously you suck ass at Leblanc and do not know how to play her. I deceive the **** out of teams. Good day.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leblancster View Post
"-Leblanc, the Deciever.

Ask yourself - is she more known for her Q + R combo or is she known for being the ultimate deciever, someone that tricks you and acts with the art of surprise ?
Exactly - her Q + R combo, hence the well-known QQ such as 'omg wtf noob champ Q + R burst damage no skill' and so forth.

In our opinion, pretty sad for a champion to be known for a straightforward spellcombo instead of being known as the ultimate deciever (better themed and interesting playstyle) that she could have been. *Sigh*- the Monkey King makes more decieving plays and he's a freakin' monkey, not 'the Deciever'."

Obviously you suck ass at Leblanc and do not know how to play her. I deceive the **** out of teams. Good day.
That would just be observating her current kit - we aren't denying you can't decieve people with her current kit, we are saying that it's not core of her kit. It's a watered down version of what she could be.

Thank you for not getting our point and your constructive feedback, you are most welcome.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DagonTreant View Post
I'm a bit confused here--Ziggs's Q is a circle-AoE skillshot, not a line skillshot.

I believe what he was getting at, is that since ziggs Q bounces and can miss targets on its straight trajectory, you could do the same thing with Ashe's Volley to make it rely on angle as well as depth. If you were actually shooting a volley of arrows you wouldn't hit stuff too close or too far away.
Honestly, I think that would be over-complicating things a bit. Ziggs's makes immediate sense because of the nature of the bomb when bouncing and the much smaller margin of error, but with Volley, how would you read into that and how would that play? Doesn't feel good for me form a friction perspective, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon View Post
I did a bit of an analysis on Varus, because he happens to be my favorite ADC. All suggestions are welcome, and feel free to follow me at: loldaemon.tumblr.com!

Analysis of Varus: What could be better?


Varus is one of my favorite champions. The idea of a broken, corrupted man sacrificing himself for the greater good is probably one of my favorite character archetypes. The idea of giving up everything to the darkness is a very strong theme and I applaud Riot for this concept. However, how I interpreted him and how the designers interpreted him ended up being two completely different things.

As mentioned on the forums, a lot of people thought he was the “acrobatic archer” type. Apparently he is not. Varus is undeniably very handsome, yet very broken. The “acrobatic archer” archetype fits in very well with this. An example you all may or may not know is Zuko from Avatar: The Last Airbender: very handsome, very broken, and very acrobatic when firebending. He is a great character and is a lot like Varus. While the “athletic archer” idea is fine, I think if he had been more lithe and they had pushed out the hidden, charming side of Varus (you can see a bit of it when he does a waltz with his bow), it would have made for a more cohesive character.

On to his actual abilities. Varus is an archer of Ionia, willingly corrupted by darkness. His W and his ultimate represent the spread of the corruption he has to deal with. I believe his ult is fine, his W lackluster. Visually, his ultimate needs to be more drastic, more flashy. On to his Q. Varus charges his bow, is slowed in the process and has a long-range poke. It is probably one of my favorite abilities in the game, but I feel it also needs some more darkness involved, visually. It also shows his true power: a giant arrow that makes even Ezreal fear for his life. Now to his E. It is a small, AoE slow/instant damage. Since he is corrupting the land, I think that in addition to instant damage, there should be a DoT. The initial hit would have to be nerfed a bit, but the DoT of it would definitely push the idea of corruption forward. Also, it would serve as a sort of punishment to the opposing enemy ADC when farming. It would still trigger his Blight stacks, but it would give him more of a presence in lane while not having to wait for his extraordinarily long cooldowns. As for his passive, well, it doesn’t make too much sense. It is obvious it was created so he could keep in line with other ADCs who build attack speed. I’m not too sure what can be done here. It does help him CS. As for his W, here is a suggestion that could be used to aid him in his lack of gap-closer. Active: After causing 10 targets to be affected with Blight, Varus can activate this ability. The next target hit will cause Varus to be knocked back 300 units and the target will receive three stacks of Blight.

Ten targets means ten different targets, not each stack of blight. The active is kind of like Caitlyn’s E. This would also encourage combos. When at 9 targets, shoot enemy champion to get the 10th target stack. Get three stacks on them, E them to slow, then use the active on W to get three more stacks, then Q.
At first I thought you were talking about the redesign of Varus I did, since you keep on mentioning this "acrobatic archer" archetype (which I did, in fact, glean from his physique, the waltz, and his taunts--"You'd like some real amusement? Come closer!" and "When you dance with death, lead"--which hinted at the dancing-in-and-out-of-range play capitalized with the redesign)--but as it turns out, you were just talking about regular Varus!

Now why is this a point I make? Because I think that everything you just said may be some damn strong evidence towards the fact that you might just be very much pleased with what I've done with him. : )

(Also, I think from a visual standpoint, something that could've been capitalized on was the nature of his bow--at first I thought it was part of his arm/replaced his hand, but on closer inspection, it was not. Now, what would drive the point home of this guy dedicating himself so much to his job that he chose it over his people and his family? I think incorporating that bow a bit more heavily into his design by making it an actual "part" of him could serve to make him more interesting on a visual level, as well as incorporate the vice that did him in, into his visual design. This is just some design ranting though, it's one of my favorite things to think about!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MastaSuker View Post
First of all good read.
Thank you! We've worked really hard at this so I'm glad people are happy with it. : )

Quote:
Now if you make the nibble on Trundle for instance it will make him very much like Warwick. And trolls do actually steal Of course there might be a better animation and whatnot to help with that.
In terms of visuals? Sure, there will be some slight similarities. In terms of function, though, not at all! You see, while Warwick's ult is more of a "wolf pinning down its prey" (or, more accurately, a hunting dog locking down on the hunt--since as Warwick, that's what you are to your team), Trundle's is more of what Peri said--kind of like Gollum from LotR jumping on your and nibbling on your head! He's "weighing you down" more than he is "pinning you down," and the reaction to that becomes less of a momentary "OH NO I'VE BEEN CAUGHT" and more of a "GET THIS DUDE OFF ME" which is what you'd be aiming for with Trundle! It's less of a form of initiation or "locking down" a high-priority target, and more of a way to get the entire enemy team to focus you (because that's what you want as Trundle--especially with his Innate!).

Quote:
As for Burden of knowlege I think that the loading screen can be used more as an announcer type thing than what it is now. For instance the loading screen usually takes over 30 seconds so you can show major points about the champions you will be fighting against.
That's still giving players homework though--because sure, while you may be putting these more abstract points out there right away, you're still forcing players to memorize those abstract points, and not really doing anything about the fact that quite a number of abilities "come out of left field" (Brand/Annie stun, Maokai dash, etc.), so players would still have to memorize every ability of every champion's kit as opposed to simple playstyles and counterplay that is clear as day even if you don't necessarily know the particulars of every ability.

And on the topic of that memorization--one of the reasons I'm so against this whole "burden of knowledge" stuff is not just because of the effects on players outside of games (the "homework" part), but what drags itself into the games too! If you're forced to remember every abstract, particular, or non-sequitur ability on every champion while in-game, that's taking up space in your mind that could be better used on being engaged with the game around you 100% and not having to get bogged down in messy details. Think of it as the difference between playing tennis, and playing tennis while learning Spanish--the game of tennis you're in gets that much harder and clunkier, now doesn't it! This is what we try to avoid here, because above all, we want as little in between "player" and "fun" as possible because we want players to have as much fun as possible!

Quote:
As far as depth of character goes I completely disagree. Champs such as Annie were important for me when I first started playing. This is a fireball, this is a firefield, and this is a teddy bear that kills people. I still play Annie from time to time but she is actually a very hard champion once you get to the point where people know to just go away when she laughs. Point is Lee Sin and Orianna are just not for everyone.
You sound like you're a bit worried that there aren't going to be any "beginner"-level champions for new players to grab onto when they first start--but have no fear, I've thought of this too! While there aren't super many (I don't like sacrificing gameplay depth for needless simplicity--the newfound readability and unity of the kits should be what makes the game easier to play, since you'll have more time to learn about the finer points of your particular champion), I've made sure that there are at least two "straightforward/simple" champions for each role, that are fairly easy to pick up without limiting options or sacrificing ease for strength so they can still be popular at all levels of play.

Carry: Tristana, Kog'Maw
Assassin: Akali, Caitlyn
Mage: Heimerdinger, Ryze (probably Vlad too)
Bruiser: Garen, Darius
Tank: Gragas, Amumu
Support: Morgana, Sona (Teemo and Lulu could probably be argued as well)

These are probably the champions newer players would stick to while learning the ropes--and while they're easy to pick up, you can still play quite a number of games focusing on mastering them after that (while "mastering" for Fidds/Annie/Ashe currently just means "getting good at the game"--positioning, judging power levels, and so on, nothing really particular to each champion and not really any sort of satisfaction from "mastering" them)!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
I think he was talking about the new E of Skarner Redesign, dude.
Oh, whoops! My bad! (Although in the future, if you guys could specify whether you're talking about current champions and their redesigns, that would really help me not get all confused, haha)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leblancster View Post
"-Leblanc, the Deciever.

Ask yourself - is she more known for her Q + R combo or is she known for being the ultimate deciever, someone that tricks you and acts with the art of surprise ?
Exactly - her Q + R combo, hence the well-known QQ such as 'omg wtf noob champ Q + R burst damage no skill' and so forth.

In our opinion, pretty sad for a champion to be known for a straightforward spellcombo instead of being known as the ultimate deciever (better themed and interesting playstyle) that she could have been. *Sigh*- the Monkey King makes more decieving plays and he's a freakin' monkey, not 'the Deciever'."

Obviously you suck ass at Leblanc and do not know how to play her. I deceive the **** out of teams. Good day.
Ah, the old "THIS CHAMP DOESN'T NEED TO BE REDESIGNED, YOU JUST NEED TO L2P"

Ask yourself--"Do I know what 'deceive' means?" "Am I maybe getting a little defensive about my crutch 'I-can-instagib-my-lane-opponent-every-30-seconds-until-lategame-makes-me-irrelevant' champion?" "Does LeBlanc's kit really make sense, and could she be made more readable?"

However, you seem to just be "another one of those guys" that makes solo queue a royal pain, so any sort of dedicated, thoughtful, and informed discourse from you would be a pleasant surprise.


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SnowingGnat

Senior Member

01-25-2013

I have only a couple of ideas.

Graves' Smoke screen mechanic (with the no sight) should be implented into Akali's Shroud. I mean they are both smoke. And a ninja jumping from pure smoke would be pretty cool. So: hinder sight in Akali's shroud.

Olaf's Ragnarok should allow him to break Anivia, Jarvan IV walls. Make him a pure badass.

Rengar's Savagery should leave a blood trail on the champion (no dmg involved) so he can track down his prey via their tracks. Maybe make it last like 10 seconds give or take.

That is all. Thankyou.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowingGnat View Post
I have only a couple of ideas.

Graves' Smoke screen mechanic (with the no sight) should be implented into Akali's Shroud. I mean they are both smoke. And a ninja jumping from pure smoke would be pretty cool. So: hinder sight in Akali's shroud.
"Giving" her that added bonus would mean I'd have to "take" away from the rest of her kit--while I get what you're saying, I've done something similar and made her shroud briefly silence and blind enemies in the initial AoE!

Quote:
Olaf's Ragnarok should allow him to break Anivia, Jarvan IV walls. Make him a pure badass.
Keep in mind that his Ragnarok has been changed a bit--there's enough of a distinct lack of counterplay to it already, I don't think you'd want to take what's left of it away.

Quote:
Rengar's Savagery should leave a blood trail on the champion (no dmg involved) so he can track down his prey via their tracks. Maybe make it last like 10 seconds give or take.

That is all. Thankyou.
Hmm, I understand what you'd want from this, but Rengar's a bit more about "prowling" than "tracking"--he's all about that initial moment of engagement, the "pounce" (which was watered down, unfortunately--while a good fix to him would've been to make his steroids a bit stronger but have them decay over time like his slow, after his buff, he became "less Rengar" and "more vague bruiser"), and his ult already allows him to sniff out his prey.

With Rengar, if your prey escapes from you (and you don't have your ult--it exists as a temporary "home field" for Rengar and should reward Rengar players for not having to use it to start engagements), that should be it. It makes that "pounce" paramount to Rengar, and that should be what the Pridestalker is all about!

At any rate, thanks for your input and your involvement with this thread. : )


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rusoX 666

Senior Member

01-25-2013

@BestBilbo When I played against a Vladimir for the 1st time, like 2 years ago. I thought his ultimate gave him extra HP for each time he kills a unit with it.


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Rasako

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Senior Member

01-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Check-out the Redesign my friend, all of these abilities would be very much 'guess-able' or predictable when just looking at the splash art of the champion. Why ? Because it makes sense to their theming, it makes sense to their appearance.

Graves's smokescreen ? Not by a long shot. I'd have to check out his lore and read the single sentence where it states 'Graves has a special gun modified for him' justifying the fact that he has this illogical flaw/ability in his kit.

Burden of Knowledge is there currently ? Yes. Fact. This can be easily removed and replaced with abilities that fit theme therefore enriching the player's expierence of playing the character ? Yes. Fact.

Now let's compare the homework, you look at the splash art and in-game everything makes sense, being more readable and more memorable, nothing you need to read into, compared to: looking at the splash art, thinking you have a good idea of what this champion is going to do, you're misleaded and forced to read lore.

EDIT: Considering the 3 downvotes here I guess I have stepped on some toes here. There's nothing more to explain, if you don't understand or realize that the single sentence in graves's lore - the part where they mention he specifically has a shotgun made for him - is a sentence to justify the flaw in his kit, than I'm afraid there is nothing I can explain to convince you otherwise guys. You either get it, or you don't.

Note: I'm not saying lore is irrelevant and is useless, in fact I agree, a good story does enhance the feeling of playing that character, though it's bad you need to read the lore to get this feeling because it feels weird/unlogical in the first place.

Good example would be Ezreal, everything this guy does makes sense and fits with his story, same for Kassadin, that's awesome. (without stuff making no sense)
ive only read his lore one time when he came out and even I know that graves' shotgun was designed specifically for him >.>


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LightningAcorns

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Senior Member

01-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasako View Post
ive only read his lore one time when he came out and even I know that graves' shotgun was designed specifically for him >.>
That's one line. ONE line. It's an excuse to have such a disjointed ability for the sake of having it. You can't tell that he should have one anyways even if they say he has a modified shotgun. Why smokescreen? Why not something that is designed to screw over TF? He should be straightforward, as he is sick of Twisted Fate's tricks for locking him up, yet he's using some of his own.


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DoozleDorf

Senior Member

01-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
This ultimately leaves us to this question:
Bilbo, while I understand, somewhat, the need to reduce lengthy posts in an effort to try to get responses from Morello, I do wish you had either not snipped the quoted post from me (the part you included serves the purpose of emphasizing your point about "readability", but does injustice to the overall point, and question, I was raising with Morello-- (over)saturation), or, when quoting posts, actually leave the links to the original posts in tact so that he can navigate back to the full posts and choose for himself which parts (or total) he wants to respond to.

To reiterate the point I was trying to make, there are numerous reasons for concerns about (over)saturation that go beyond just the issue of readability, including:
~overwhelming new players
~frustrating casual/part-time players
~requiring mountains of homework to succeed/understand the game
~regurgitating existing abilities on new champions
~leaving old champs in the dust by creating v2.0's
~creating so many champs that even hard-core players don't have enough time/opportunity to play the ones they love
~and the question of: can a free-to-play business model exist/succeed without new shiny champion releases on a regular schedule

Thanks!