Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? @Morello @Feralpony @IronStylus @Xypherous

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Vulking

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Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I think you misunderstand the issue - that was never the design philosophy, that was the result of making auto-attack based characters with ranged. We just understand that's how the efficiency works - auto-attacks scale 1:1, and if one guy has range and the other doesn't, the amount of power you need to give the melee guy gets to the point of silly. That's the problem to fix.
Random (and maybe ****ty ideas):

- Ranged ADC AA now deal 0.8 of their total damage, now Melee ADC AA are 20% stronger.
(Power down RADC slightly to give MADC more power without affecting the game as a whole too much)

- Ranged ADC AA are now more effective against MR but less effective against Armor while Melee ADC AA are more effective against Armor and less effective against MR.
(Give RADC and MADC an additional role where they excel at giving them a more diverse role)

- Melee ADC gain passive resistances against Ranged ADC up to a certain distance
(Think Eve stealth, this way MADC can go bottom and take less damage from the harass unless the RADC get closer to bypass the MADC resistance to ranged AA)


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Learnding

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
-Tryndamere, the Barbarian King.

Pretty imbalanced as there barely is counterplay to his ult, Tryndamere tends to be a character that's either OP or UP.
Wait what? Any form of CC counters Tryndamere.


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phatcat09

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulking View Post
Random (and maybe ****ty ideas):

- Ranged ADC AA now deal 0.8 of their total damage, now Melee ADC AA are 20% stronger.
(Power down RADC slightly to give MADC more power without affecting the game as a whole too much)

- Ranged ADC AA are now more effective against MR but less effective against Armor while Melee ADC AA are more effective against Armor and less effective against MR.
(Give RADC and MADC an additional role where they excel at giving them a more diverse role)

- Melee ADC gain passive resistances against Ranged ADC up to a certain distance
(Think Eve stealth, this way MADC can go bottom and take less damage from the harass unless the RADC get closer to bypass the MADC resistance to ranged AA)
this works too.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyan Buffalo View Post
Wait what? Any form of CC counters Tryndamere.
Exactly - they got to nerf or buff his kit besides his ultimate because they think 'his ultimate is fine as it is'.

Similar nerfs happend to Nocturne, instead of defining his strengths and weaknesses by fixing the actual problems of his kit they had to touch the most fun ability in his kit; his ultimate (all the range nerfs I'm talking now).

I fear this will also happen to Olaf aswell - they might nerf his normal abilities eventhough they are fine, they'll most likely touch them because they don't acknowledge Olaf's ult being the current problem. While they could balance him better by laying more emphasis on his theme (See Olaf Redesign) he would provide more counterplay than 'Olaf ulting in with ghost' while you can do NOTHING about it currently until the duration's over, good chance he has destroyed your entire backline in that time.

Tryndamere's problem would be his ultimate right now - ItemsGuy tried to fix him in the Redesign, still keeping him a raging barbarian that gets to do stuff when he's practically dead.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-24-2013

I've recently played a few games as Vi (I bought her at release out of principle of her being so well-designed and deserving of my support, but didn't play more than two games with her because she was a bit wonky and unresponsive; frictional problems as opposed to problems of design), and I have got to say, I'm pleased as punch with how she turned out!

There's so much weight behind her punches, W and E make it feel like you're really driving your fists into the enemy--it's great! Those QoL changes really helped her out--as frictions like that are just as important as design (good job, dudes!). I wish I could play her more, but I've got some serious work to catch up to--my involvement in this thread will probably also be limited, at least until the weekend.

I'm loving the discussion, and grateful for all of you that have contributed! I know I've said this before, but I never really get to see this kind of discussion take place on GD, so I'm savoring every minute of it.

Cheers!


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Exactly - they got to nerf or buff his kit besides his ultimate because they think 'his ultimate is fine as it is'.

Similar nerfs happend to Nocturne, instead of defining his strengths and weaknesses by fixing the actual problems of his kit they had to touch the most fun ability in his kit; his ultimate (all the range nerfs I'm talking now). I fear this will also happen to Olaf - while they could balance him better by laying more emphasis on his theme (See Olaf Redesign) he would provide more counterplay than 'Olaf ulting in with ghost' while you can do NOTHING about it until the duration's over, good chance he has destroyed your entire backline in that time.

Tryndamere's problem would be his ultimate right now - ItemsGuy tried to fix him in the Redesign, still keeping him a raging barbarian that gets to do stuff when he's practically dead.
And yes, thanks for clearing that up!

I'll be off now, so keep up the good discussion! Let's hope Morello has enough time to put aside for answering some of our lengthier posts--I know these take a while to blow through (and answer!) on top of your busy schedule, and again, can't stress enough how much we appreciate your help on this! The sticky and Riot mark have done more than enough to inspire the community to ask some juicy questions and think critically about the game they play (an active community is a healthy community!), but taking the time to actually come in here and crank out the discussion is just a reminder of what exactly give Riot the potential to truly rise above the rest.

It's because of this sort of communication (which is good for any sort of relationship, be it personal, professional, or with clients), stuff like this can happen--meaning League can constantly evolve as a game, and Riot can constantly grow as a company. : )


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Mikuru BEAMZ

Member

01-24-2013

I main ADC. as far as i can tell there are essentially 3 kinds of adc's, obviously all with their subtleties but generally you have.

adc's with escapes who are spell reliant, eg corki ezreal tristana

adc's with no escapes who are autoattack reliant, like ashe varus kogma

and a few which fall somewhere in between like vayne and graves, caitlyn etc

the only adc who is vastly different to play is twitch but as soon as he uncloaks and presses r he is just another positioning AA adc.

im not saying i particularly dislike this, if your a good ezreal player your probably not a bad corki player so it makes it easier for me to be good at more adc's. when it gets to lategame and your chasing people as vayne it feels like it should whereas i cant say i notice much difference between corki and ezreal in terms of playstyle, they both have poke and are spell relient, they both have escapes corki is better late-game and against tanks but thats more just a target choice.

I would really like to see more design to make adc's feel more individual. much like vayne does with her passive. she has to be played agressivley to work. Caitlyn is another good example she plays like a harass and hard turret pusher she has to be played that way to work . this is a good thing to me i feel what champion you play should have more impact on how you play


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by arbiter reborn View Post
I main ADC. as far as i can tell there are essentially 3 kinds of adc's, obviously all with their subtleties but generally you have.

adc's with escapes who are spell reliant, eg corki ezreal tristana

adc's with no escapes who are autoattack reliant, like ashe varus kogma

and a few which fall somewhere in between like vayne and graves, caitlyn etc

the only adc who is vastly different to play is twitch but as soon as he uncloaks and presses r he is just another positioning AA adc.

im not saying i particularly dislike this, if your a good ezreal player your probably not a bad corki player so it makes it easier for me to be good at more adc's. when it gets to lategame and your chasing people as vayne it feels like it should whereas i cant say i notice much difference between corki and ezreal in terms of playstyle, they both have poke and are spell relient, they both have escapes corki is better late-game and against tanks but thats more just a target choice.

I would really like to see more design to make adc's feel more individual. much like vayne does with her passive. she has to be played agressivley to work. Caitlyn is another good example she plays like a harass and hard turret pusher she has to be played that way to work . this is a good thing to me i feel what champion you play should have more impact on how you play
I think I may have addressed these problems in my work, actually!

If you have the time, would you mind looking at the ADCs (not including Cait or Ez--they've taken a shift in role for the sake of unity) listed in the "redesigns" section on the first page, and leave some feedback? Do you think they live up to that whole idea of "individuality"--even with similar champs like Kog and Tristan?

Thank you!


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Wise Squirrel

Senior Member

01-24-2013

The problem with ranged adc is that they are easier to use.

I can still play as Tryndamere just fine, although it just because of my careful earlygame and my undying ultimate

ADCs currently only die to assassins, so as long as the ADC is properly focused, they are not a problem at all.


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Ghengis John2

Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Oh lord, an IronStylus comment concerning our threads !


Source: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...89197#33489197 - thank you IronStylus you are more than awesome, I hope we'll see you here soon ! Take your time
I tried following the quote links but got lost twice without finding these proposed leona/diana changes that IS liked. Would anyone mind linking me to them?