Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? @Morello @Feralpony @IronStylus @Xypherous

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Morello

Lead Designer

01-24-2013
21 of 22 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by phatcat09 View Post
Your design goals make this tough have you ever thought about fundamentally changing them?

Why is it so important to have an Ranged AD character be the carry.
I think you misunderstand the issue - that was never the design philosophy, that was the result of making auto-attack based characters with ranged. We just understand that's how the efficiency works - auto-attacks scale 1:1, and if one guy has range and the other doesn't, the amount of power you need to give the melee guy gets to the point of silly. That's the problem to fix.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I think you misunderstand the issue - that was never the design philosophy, that was the result of making auto-attack based characters with ranged. We just understand that's how the efficiency works - auto-attacks scale 1:1, and if one guy has range and the other doesn't, the amount of power you need to give the melee guy gets to the point of silly. That's the problem to fix.
Woot - gonna fire that post at you Morello !


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
<insert zip/derp/herpa derpa>
Morello, first of all thanks for all of your input here - there's a lot of stuff however where I'd like to have your opinion on (I'm not the only one). You've said you like this discussion, I think everyone does. Thanks for the sticky, lets go !

Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiBelgarath
I don't think you actually have different ideas of what it should be, or even what is important. The difference is Riot is focusing more on interesting mechanics
You've responded to this and said you have agreed - IMO this is a bit unfair, as it is far from true.

With all of the Redesigns we've tried to capture everything; from counterplay to readability to consistant theming.
Mechanics ? You can come up with so many interesting mechanics while still sticking to theme (having things readable along the way), ItemsGuy tried to wrap all of these important aspects when designing a champion and god there are some really cool and interesting mechanics.

Redesign Zyra's ultimate; plants going out of the ground, migrating to another spot where they'll 'dig in' again. Not only is this extremely readable and fitting, it's unique and an interesting mechanic - IMO.

You've said yourself you've come out with some extremely succesful designs such as Vi, Draven, Thresh, how coul you possibly think you need to sacrifice anything for something else ?

To lay an emphasis here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy
Again, if I could work to make my points as clear as possible--as far as theme and gameplay depth go, they're fine on their own, but prioritizing either can be problematic. Either way, no matter which you prioritize, it will never yield as good a result as if you used them in harmony! Bread alone is flavorless, jam alone is sticky and unpleasant, and peanutbutter sticks to the roof of your mouth--but when you put them all together, you get a delicious sandwich!

Sorry if I'm bogging you down with food metaphors, it's a bad habit.
I hope that's clear for you, now

What happens if you push this design-philosophy ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortamor
I support this idea - why? Simple! I play DotA 2.

Now, you might ask why this matters. Well, it's simple, really. I play DotA if I want to go tryhard, I go to League if I want to have a nice, fun game without having to remember OVER NINE THOUSAND things just to play one character. These redesigns would make this so much easier
.
If anything, we are creating more unique mechanics (more or less what Mortamor says yet in DotA he has to 'just memorize' these mechanics as he doesn't have a solid theme or readable goal he can grasp onto) - more unique champions, creating more variety among champions as every character works as an individual and has individual strengths and weaknesses. There have been countless of posts here in this very thread where a lot of people have said 'Yeah when I play Syndra/Zyra she just feels like another generic mage' (You've said you would have liked to push their themes better, concerning Syndra and Zyra).

Pushing our design-philosophy to the fullest, what could possibly happen with League as an E-Sport ?

Small portion of ItemsGuy's application he sent to Riot - to you guys:

'I also hope to eventually make League the best MOBA out there, and beyond that, possibly one of the first full-blown Spectator eSports in the world (Korea notwithstanding--I already know StarCraft is pretty huge over there but it's not readable or dynamic to the point of enthralling people who have never played it)--a huge step for video games as a whole.'

Now I know you would have pushed Zyra more as a Nature Mage if you could do her over, though I'd still like to use her as an example right now. Her R is more or less a large aoe circle nuke with knock-up tied to some nature particles.

I think that some vine-particles whipping up knocking up people doing extremely devastating amounts of damage is less readable than a bunch of plants pulling out of the ground migrating to another spot and the plants doing damage afterwards. This is my opinion, suit yourself : )

The gravedigger spawning his very characteristic zombies, the inventor constantly building his inventions and the angry tree using nature to wreck havoc on the battlefield are just some extremely readable examples of how friendly to the eye League can be, themetically tied to the characters aswell as having extremely cool and unique mechanics.

Now League is very clear - fact, in terms of visuals it's great. League could be even more clear with having champions doing what you expect them to do. 'Full blown spectator eSports' - sounds cool IMO.

This ultimately leaves us to this question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoozleDorf
@ Morello- I would really love to hear your response to one of the major points in the 'Summary of the Summary Summary' section: that is the question of "Saturation".

I first started playing LoL at the Varus patch-- he was my first champion, and still one of my favorites. At the time, I had that 'first time to the big city' wide-eyed and a bit overwhelmed feeling of the largesse of the champion pool. It took many deep breaths to understand that I didn't need to know every champion, ability, matchup and passive to be able to play and enjoy the game.

However, as I played more and more, frustrations definitely emerged because of facing opponents I had no clue about-- didn't know their passive or abilities, and certainly therefor, had no idea how to counter them. With some champions the learning curve was severe (a good thing in this case) such as the example of Vayne ("If I get three rings on me, it hurts. Don't let that happen"). The ability, and its effect on me were obvious and easy to read/respond to. It has taken hundreds of hours of homework to even begin to learn all there is to know about the current roster.
Morello, I'm extremely delighted you either agree or completely understand our points but you do add 'it's just another perspective' or 'it's not our priority' to justify what you are doing currently with the champion delevopment, or to be fair - what you have done in the past. I hope we've managed to change your mind on that now, how champion-design doesn't have to be about prioritizing in one single aspect at the cost of readability or theme (Vi, Draven, Thresh, Vayne are proof of this and are one of the strongest and themetically fitting champions in the game, from visual appearance to playstyle/kit to lore).

I'd really appreciate it if you could check out these Redesigns and read them as if you weren't 'Morello, Lead Champion Designer' that has been working for Riot for years, read them as if you truly believe every champion can themetically fit throughout playstyle and visual appearance, while being extremely readable and providing plenty of counterplay.

I tried to pick out the most solid ones ItemsGuy has made, a few are a bit tricky, I most certainly agree, but I hope these'll do:

Quote:
-Nunu, the Yeti Rider.

Nunu, has some issues with readability and theming, yet his depth would be ENTIRELY his problem.
Right now Nunu is no more than a walking (counterjungling) attack speed buff and permaslow-bot.

He has a one kinda big readability issue: His ult is little relevant to him as a character, players are enforced to know and learn this dude has a charging ultimate for the sake of having it - there is not a lot of help players get to help them understand.
Nunu Redesign COMPLETELY fixes everything, Nunu gets to do stuff that is relevant to him as a tiny little annoying bully, being more readable. Willump finally gets to be the Yeti he always wanted to be, adding way more depth to the champion over-all.

The new ultimate of Nunu: Not only extremely readable, relevant and common to people, it's also extremely funny, RIOT PLS !
I'm not sure about your opinion on Nunu, but would he be one of those champions you would like to change if you could (concerning his depth for the most part), if the playerbase wouldn't be upset about it ? I hope you see this is extremely readable and pushed to theme, making Nunu a complete character of his own.

Quote:
-Malphite, the Shard of the Monolith.

Malphite is a huge mess in terms of theming, readability, counterplay and depth.

Readability: Magical moving rock that slows you ? Not really readable.

Depth & Counterplay, concerning depth; Malphite R's in and then presses Q, W, E mindlessly after.
Current counterplay ? 'Initiate before this guy does', not a lot you can do here.

Malphite Redesign focuses on being the ultimate walking rock with great force improving on theme, readability and providing more options of counterplay.
All I would want to say here is already mentioned in the explanation.

Quote:
-Trundle, the Cursed Troll.

Nitpick Champion, already much of a typical troll.

Redesign Trundle is pretty much the same though especially improves on readability and counterplay. For his ultimate:

Extremely readable and appropriate for his character (his current ult is just some cloud of filth: God knows what that should do – it’s not readable nor does it have counterplay, you are required to read have the tooltip to know what it does currently), with the redesign; a nasty gross troll that jumps on you, that starts to nibble on your head ? Very characteristic and readable while providing more counterplay - I immediately thought of Gollum in LOTR III. LOL.
'

I put Trundle in here not only because I think he themetically fits extremely well (apart from lacking some counterplay and readability concerning his ult) - I hope this will change your mind on the directions you might consider taking in a possible Trundle rework, a lot of people will get mad if you change that Q, W and E, they fit perfectly and are extremely good abilities.

Quote:
-Zyra, the Rise of Thorns

Zyra rather is the generic mage with the nature skin than the Ultimate Nature Mage she could have been.

Redesign Zyra - one of my favourite Redesigns - Zyra turns to an organic 'living' & caring mage, she turns the Field of Justice to her own garden. Taking care of your plants and growing them untill you can release them and migrate them back somewhere else into the earth !
This is just ROFLWTFBBQ. Must have.
No need to add anything here.

Quote:
-Alistar, the Minotaur.

Current Alistar is quite a mess and is a perfect example of a design that restricts Riot of having other cool abilities in the game.

What's absolutely bull-like ? Imagine an ability called 'Bullrush' - a bull charging up with anger and then dashing forward ? That's very characteristic for a bull !
His kit is very satisfying however though it is little relevant to him as a bull (the random heal in his kit especially)
With this Redesign Alistar gets to be an actual raging bull now, this guy is going to charge after you.
Frankly, this is what makes me sad quite a bit. Your argument 'we don't prioritize on these things' does not only make Alistar less of a bull he could be, it also automatically denies of having characters like this in the game (I really think you'll like this over-all):

Quote:
Place-holder champion.

-Edmund, the Abomination.

My first reaction when I red ItemsGuy's Alistar redesign was: 'No no please no, okay maybe Alistar's current kit doesn't really fit him as the ultimate raging bull, but god his current kit is so fun and satisfying !'

As I was in a skype conversation with him, he laughed and sent me a link.
Introducing 'Edmund' the champion with Alistar's current kit that fit him perfectly, readable, appropriate, and most of all: a very fun and fitting appearance + lore making a very cool and unified character. Oh yeah; Edmund would be the first black champion entering the League, people have been asking/wondering for one for quite some time now.

Edmund is an extremely readable character, everything he does makes sense as it fits with his visual appearance.
Quote:
Sion, the Undead Champion

This dude is definetely getting a visual rework and most-likely a kitrework aswell, well we have our rework:
Redesign Sion has a kit more appropriate to his theme, having a defined 'Undead warrior' playstyle, improving on counterplay and readability.
Sidenote: The passive of Sion in this Redesign makes A LOT more sense than the champion that currently holds a similar passive - pretty characteristic right, an undead warrior rising from the grave ?
Since you are probably reworking Sion anyway, felt I should pop him in there aswell.

Quote:
-Vladimir, the Crimson Reaper.
Current Vladimir has some issues concerning readability and depth, not only is he very straightforward, especially in teamfights (Try to R most people, pop Q and E over and over again until you are forced to W at the right time, pop Q and E over and over again until the fight is won, lost or you being killed). And don't get me started on counterplay, if there's any character that literally screws you over by poking you in lane with high sustain without you being able to do anything about it besides Yorick - it'd be Vladimir.
In terms of readability - for example, his ult is no more than a 'well I just hit this on people and it'll do damage after a while where in the meantime the effected enemies take more damage' - wich is not relevant to him as a mage/bender that uses blood.

Redesign Vladimir makes a 'Blood Bender' more of a 'Blood Bender'. This redesign specifically focuses on playing around with health/blood, you literally bend it out of you for others to help or to do damage to enemies or steal blood from enemies to help yourself. Vladimir turns into a true pumping heart playstyle, constantly flowing around blood from and to you.
Since I've read plenty of comments where you don't like Vladimirs design especially in terms of counterplay, I think you'd like this.

Quote:
-Yorick, the Gravedigger

Morello considers Yorick one of the most problematic/worst designs in LoL history, as he is very dull and even worse; barely provides counterplay.
Yorick Redesign completely lives up to his theme as Gravedigger and necromancer. Not only is Yorick Redesign extremely fun and characteristic - being better themetically (improving on readability aswell), he also provides tons of counterplay; you can do a lot to stop the Gravedigger, this really creates a lot of depth and possibilities Yorick has with his new kit.
And here is where I would disagree about 'us proiritizing' on theming only, especially in this Redesign. This is the only one out of all Redesign I have made, I felt like giving it a shot and came up with this. I'm not entirely sure what you think about these controllable units (eventhough it's pretty much alt commands with alt + S occasionaly, plus an ultimate to help you manage your summons).
Not only do all of the abilities themetically fit and are readable, the counterplay is clear as day, you run over his tombs, you interrupt the channel and you destroy the whisp before it reaches it target.

I have no idea what you could possibly have against this suggested Redesign, if you ask me this would be one of the coolest characters in the game if this would make it live, while being readable, themetically tied to the character and having the counterplay being clear as day.

You say you are taking a new direction concerning champion-design, does this include mechanics like suggested in this Yorick Redesign ? Would love to see your opinion on this. What do you think of all the Redesigns I've suggested you to check out ? Could you explain why ?

Thank you for coming here Morello, but answering all of this would be the best thing you could ever do for all of us here.

That said - ItemsGuy/Ryan has sent his application and should here from you within a week, I really hope that the work we've done here doesn't go unnoticed, especially since you and ItemsGuy seem to agree over a whole lot.

I do not wish to argue over Redesigns that wouldn't really fit or might be tricky in current League or might even be tricky for a possible 'LoL 2' hence I have picked out Redesigns for you to check out that could perfectly fit in League as it currently is. I guess it would be best to discuss the topic of a possible new game with ItemsGuy in person and especially since it won't be anytime soon that League will 'die' or stop champion production.

Oh, and this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryslash

Very good thread and good points, a lot of which are (I presume) very aware by Riot right now.

My opinion is that these "changes" in Champions that we speak of should happen here and now, not at a "League of Legends 2" even if some players will be mad at first. They'll be mad but in the end they will still play and, because of better designed champions, will enjoy the game even more.

Changes will always upset some people and we have plenty of examples right now, in League of Legends. But some changes are for the best. When they're for the best, the result is obviously a game better than before.

If Riot was afraid of making players mad, they wouldn't have done a lot of things they already did.
Wether some of our suggestions would fit a sequel better or not - I hope that some of you realize that some of these Redesigns are not only extremely good, they could fit into League right now. (In my opinion, Malphite probably being one of the most rock-solid ones out there - trust me. Also with all of his FotM he has been through, was considered one of the strongest champions in the game, perhaps due to the 'initiate before this guy does' lack of counterplay ?)

LoL currently or LoL 2 - would you consider reworking older champions to improve on theming, readability and counterplay to continue to polish League once champion production has to stop, Morello ?

PS: With all of the recent releases that have been extremely tied themetically *looks at Vi, Thresh*, I am extremely excited what you have for us in 2013, this year. For me, you are going in to the perfect direction here.

PS2: I know I might be asking a lot of questions here so no doubt this will take some time for you - I just hope you'll answer this as you'll be answering most of the questions asked indirectly. I'd like to point something out concerning my/our opinion on Supports in League of Legends, but I guess this'll come later. Almost done here, for my part.

Still loving the discussion guys, keep this up.


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CragBlade

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Well I know it's a big issue for you specifically Fox, and it's not something I'm thrilled about either. The problem with this is that it's a very difficult-to-solve problem with low overall impact on League. When I compare that to things like a broken item system, it's tougher to prioritize.

A couple of shots off the bow are things like Mercurial Scimitar or Bloody Hydra that really benefit melee more and have stats that are more carry-focused. If that actually has helped, no one has found a way to make it work.
Bruisers tend to love these items far more than ad casters ever would. That is the main problem.

You would need to do a sweeping nerf to bruisers in general, or maybe make some of them function more as melee carries like Xin Zhao. As it stands, Bruisers can do most of what melee carries would do in team fights and ranged carries can do what they can do everywhere else. There doesn't really seem to be a reason to pick one up at all.

In the case of Ravenous Hydra, Fiora uses it really well because of her ult. Trynd and Yi really don't. I would rather build it on Xin, Jarvan, Renekton, Riven, Pantheon etc.,


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Breakstar

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Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I think you misunderstand the issue - that was never the design philosophy, that was the result of making auto-attack based characters with ranged. We just understand that's how the efficiency works - auto-attacks scale 1:1, and if one guy has range and the other doesn't, the amount of power you need to give the melee guy gets to the point of silly. That's the problem to fix.
What's the direction of your solution, then? I mean, you HAVE to give them some sort of power, either by giving them ridiculous melee-only items (or Ghostblade-like better-for-melee items), giving them ridiculous innate stats and abilities (remember Tryndamere's lane sustain back in the day?), or finding some other way to make them more attractive than ranged carries (like powerful melee-only summoner spells or making supports that are massively more powerful with melee carries).

The problem, as I'm sure you know, is that everything I just listed is an awful solution from a game health perspective. I'm very curious as to what direction you're going to take with the fix.


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Fox P McCloud

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Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I think you misunderstand the issue - that was never the design philosophy, that was the result of making auto-attack based characters with ranged. We just understand that's how the efficiency works - auto-attacks scale 1:1, and if one guy has range and the other doesn't, the amount of power you need to give the melee guy gets to the point of silly. That's the problem to fix.
The question is, are you ever going to fix it or are you going to can the class as a whole. Can you give a solid answer on this: Are melee carries something you will work on (and will you release more of them) or should melee carry players move on? For example, the stealth rework pretty much eliminated invisibility from the game, except Eve (and even then it's mostly just to dodge wards; more so now that her ult ranged is shortened); will "fixing" the melee carries just be morphing them into fighters who rely heavily on auto-attacks (ie: Jax)?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Well I know it's a big issue for you specifically Fox, and it's not something I'm thrilled about either. The problem with this is that it's a very difficult-to-solve problem with low overall impact on League. When I compare that to things like a broken item system, it's tougher to prioritize.

How then do you justify all the work that has been put onto supports? It wasn't but 1.5 years ago that there were only 4 supports in the game---since that time they've gotten more characters and a ton of work despite sharing a similar number in the champion pool.

Also, sorry if I come across as upset or angry---I'm not upset with Riot or you; I'm just extremely frustrated that my favorite class sucks in one MOBA I enjoy, but is mainstay and completely viable in others.

Quote:
A couple of shots off the bow are things like Mercurial Scimitar or Bloody Hydra that really benefit melee more and have stats that are more carry-focused. If that actually has helped, no one has found a way to make it work.
I think they help, but the problem you inevitably run into is that Scimitar is extremely expensive and gives you mediocre DPS, so even with melee ADCs massive AS+AD steroids, it still puts your damage lower than that of a ranged ADC, so it becomes a "ok, I'm an ultra squishy glass cannon melee who deals less DPS than a ranged; why bother trying?" stated another way; why run a risky melee ADC top lane when you can run a safer ranged in top lane and end up dealing more damage? The second problem (and this applies more to the class than the item) is that Hydra is difficult to get up and going unless you're playing top lane (which...you have to admit--melee ADCs tend to be weaker laners)---Ranged carries can effectively play top, mid, and bottom lane; melees are stuck with top or jungle....that said...because of S3 jungle changes, you're pretty much 100% locked into getting lantern on any of the melee ADCs, which really delays your ability to realistically get items like hydra or scimitar (If machette wasn't required and vampiric wasn't 800g I could easily see Hydra being go-to).

Just, I dunno---it's frustrating, to say the least =/


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trollzör

Junior Member

01-24-2013

why do you guys put out a champion and for the first few weeks they are so op then nerf them into the ground like thresh he is literally breaking games he is to over powered he shuts down every champion and his ult dose a dumb amount of dmg like stupid amounts


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by trollzör View Post
why do you guys put out a champion and for the first few weeks they are so op then nerf them into the ground like thresh he is literally breaking games he is to over powered he shuts down every champion and his ult dose a dumb amount of dmg like stupid amounts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
Thresh is a very DotA-style support, which is quite a good thing-- DotA supports are probably the most fun elements of that game. (Disruptor, Dazzle, and the like.)

Largely because they are proportionally powerful relative to carries and bursters. They can do stuff on their own, and without a lot of farm.

That's one reason League supports are not seen as particularly fun or popular-- they don't really have the tools to make plays on their own, or even survive being near an enemy damage dealer.

In DotA, a zero-item Dark Seer will wreck your day. Presumably Thresh was designed to do the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perifear^
YES, thank you !

Please for the love of god, GD community and Riot, this is how ALL supports SHOULD'VE BEEN in the first place.

A support should be a character that is to be feared, they can do stuff on their own and have huge impact with the combination of damage from their teammates, while still being useful without gold, while having a new approach to the game/having a new playstyle.

Thresh is absolutely like that.

-He has impact, he actually gets to do something
-He has a specefic unique playstyle, in this case the playstyle of a 'jailer' or a 'jailer-playstyle'
-He isn't helpless without teammates, he can still screw you over/he has some tricks up his sleeve to get away from you or to actually get to you and lock you up.

Take Janna for example, what does she do, what makes her cool, what makes her lame ?

'Windmage playstyle ?' - Not that much, her Q and R are some very cool and impactful abilities that totally define a good janna player, yet her W and E are somewhat lackluster; they are there specefically to babysit your teammates, this doesn't mean those skills can't define a good janna player, it just means these skills are less impactfull, therefore mostly more lame to play/less viable to have in your team.

If janna would be the ultimate 'wingmage playstyle' all about disruption of the enemy team (wich her Q and R are currently perfectly fitting) plus potentially speeding up her allies, she would have a more defined and impactful role, you wouldn't get Q'ed up by janna, slowed and then she shields herself helpless while she tries to escape yet it's still fairly easy to catch her, no, she should be the ultimate disrupter with wind and should be feared: 'You ain't cathing a Janna' - imagine her W and E were changed into spells that define this disrupting playstyle with wind yet still contribute tons to her team.

Alistar: Rampaging bull ? Not that much, this dude will knock you back and knock you up, than this guy will pop his ult and hopes he survives, you don't expect this kind of helplessness aka 'I can't do sh*t without a teammate' from a character that looks like a giant aggressive bull.

TLDR: Supports in League are the ultimate example of powercreep; they've ****ing nerfed supports for the sake of nerfing them, people started realizing supports are more or less literally desinged to be less impactful, wich is lame, hence people picked up Zyra, seeing that she has way more impact than the general support.

If it happens that Riot or the Community thinks that they should nerf Thresh, forget about that, buff other supports, make supporting fun and impactful.
This I posted on a thread where someone would fear for Thresh being unplayable in Draft mode - like Blitzcrank he used as an example.


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Derrick the Red

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Agreed on this - it's a difference in prioritization likely, though I think the argument is we can have both more consistently.
I actually think that what they are saying goes beyond the role-play into the uniqueness of game-play. I have played since the Leblanc release and for me my biggest issue is my favorite champions being outclassed completely by cheap copies. Think Diana, who in many ways is Akali 2.0. I find Diana's abilities kind of random and OP, while still filling the "Akali" roll. She is tank, can initiate, can jungle, can get tanky, has some soft cc, etc, while my Akali is a "pure" assassin.

By focusing on the uniqueness of what made other champions (Akali) special, Diana would not have been designed into a virtual replacement. I agree that Diana has great gameplay, but it comes at the cost of other champion's viability and gameplay.


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phatcat09

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I think you misunderstand the issue - that was never the design philosophy, that was the result of making auto-attack based characters with ranged. We just understand that's how the efficiency works - auto-attacks scale 1:1, and if one guy has range and the other doesn't, the amount of power you need to give the melee guy gets to the point of silly. That's the problem to fix.
I really really really think you should consider armor classes.

Pantheon seems like he'd be a heavy armor type.

Caitlyn would be a light armor type.


Caitlyn would simply do less damage to pantheon than what he would do to Caitlyn with the same amount of AD.I imagine between the point of first contact between the two Caitlyn could average 3-5 auto shots before pantheon can get in range including the caliber net. If we adjust damage output onto pantheon to compensate for the travel distance then you wouldn't have to worry about giving them more damage or an excessive amount of MS to stay on her.

Range characters have the inherent distance advantage -- So why are we giving them the same defensive power. Yes their "base stats/scaling" are different, but I can't fathom how you could feasibly balance armor as a stat when they all have to pick from the same items.

I would think a melee carry would be able to carry because of their ability to stay alive to relate to a range carries ability to stay out of harms way while still doling out damage.