Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? @Morello @Feralpony @IronStylus @Xypherous

First Riot Post
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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoirTheBlack View Post
Ideas you came up with are interesting, I got several favourite ones, but...
To be honest, you seem to care more about your perfect imagination of some heroes rather than how their mechanics.
For example, Ahri. Although you called her just "an another mage with extra mobility" you didnt change neitther her E or R, her transparent abilities. What you did change, was her Q - you turned it into Fiddles'sticks drain. It may be filling your idea, but seems to be completely irrelevant with her. Here is why:
Ahri is, like you said, just an another mage with extra mobility. Fiddlesticks is not even similar to her, because his whole kit is to keep an enemy close with his Q, while harrasing him with W and R. He is about building glass cannon and screw around teamfights, causing chaos and tons of damage. His W is for him to give him an advantage during single target trades, otherwise he wouldnt last long enough. He is like - go in and kill or die
And here is Ahri. She is really hard to catch because of her ulti, she never stands in one place for long. Her Q is a team shreeder if used right, however, his right use requires good positioning - which has never been so simple with any champion. So you would replace her Q with a drain, just because it fits better into her whole lure-use-forget lore. It would be totally useless on her, because as I said, she never stands still for long. Channeling is an opposite thing to mobility.
This is a pretty good comment to be honest - let's see what ItemsGuy has to say about that.

Please, don't judge the Redesigns as a whole just because you fished this one out there, but good eye. :)


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoirTheBlack View Post
Ideas you came up with are interesting, I got several favourite ones, but...
To be honest, you seem to care more about your perfect imagination of some heroes rather than how their mechanics.
For example, Ahri. Although you called her just "an another mage with extra mobility" you didnt change neitther her E or R, her transparent abilities. What you did change, was her Q - you turned it into Fiddles'sticks drain. It may be filling your idea, but seems to be completely irrelevant with her. Here is why:
Ahri is, like you said, just an another mage with extra mobility. Fiddlesticks is not even similar to her, because his whole kit is to keep an enemy close with his Q, while harrasing him with W and R. He is about building glass cannon and screw around teamfights, causing chaos and tons of damage. His W is for him to give him an advantage during single target trades, otherwise he wouldnt last long enough. He is like - go in and kill or die
And here is Ahri. She is really hard to catch because of her ulti, she never stands in one place for long. Her Q is a team shreeder if used right, however, his right use requires good positioning - which has never been so simple with any champion. So you would replace her Q with a drain, just because it fits better into her whole lure-use-forget lore. It would be totally useless on her, because as I said, she never stands still for long. Channeling is an opposite thing to mobility.
Like you mentioned, everything in her kit works towards the playstyle of "lure, use, forget." She's no longer "just about mobility," it's this mobility that she has access to that allows her to lure, use, and forget. She's not just about "using her abilities," now, she's all about catching enemies alone and off-guard, then closing the gap between them.

What does "closing the gap" here with this redesign do? Not only does it allow her to use her (shorter-ranged but more rewarding) Fox-Fire, but cut enemies off and position for a Charm -> Drain combo.

I'd go into greater depth on this, but I've more than likely already explained how the kit acts as a unified whole in the "Play and Counterplay" section near the bottom--which is what people tend to not read whenever they say "no dude what you've done here is completely wrong and wouldn't work."

The fact that her playstyle works into her lore and source material is just a sign of a champion that has potential for a higher level of unity, which is why I kept her instead of cutting her (like Irelia--who is completely unworkable from this standpoint).

EDIT:

Actually, I think I may explain further:

Innate- Shapes how you play Ahri and use the tools at her disposal. Do you use your wiles to outfox your enemies and stay alive longer, or do you go all-in and snowball faster, at risk of losing those stacks? It places greater importance on playing Ahri as Ahri, not as "just another mage, except I have more mobility sometimes." (I may also make her ult do less damage with each "bolt," but allow those bolts to coalesce on isolated targets--since finding and cornering isolated targets is Ahri's new schtick; that's the principle behind her drain, her lure, her Fox Fire, and now possibly her ult--development!)

Q- Grants Ahri that great advantage against single targets (which is the focus of her kit), and rewards skillful use of her ult and charm; if Ahri closes in on you and you have no way to interrupt you, your only options are to flee or part with a sizeable chunk of your health (in combination with her devastating-when-up-close nature of her next ability)

W- Again, rewards Ahri for singling out enemies--as if she uses it in a group, it no longer does optimal damage (as the way it works now, if you hit three different targets instead of one, you're actually doing more overall damage)--and the Fox Fires themselves could actually be blocked by your target's allies

E- Allows Ahri to quickly turn the tides if she's feigning escape from an enemy--getting them lined up for the shot, then firing it off and immediately dashing behind them with Spirit Rush to block off their escape and make walking through her their only option, as going the other way would mean going even deeper into enemy territory and having to deal with your allies;

R- Now that I've started to think more about this, actually, I may end up putting this on a "charge" system similar to Akali's gap-closer--there will certainly be situations where you'd really only need to use one dash to corner your enemy, and players should be rewarded for not having to rely on her ult that heavily by presenting them with more options (in fact, I think I'll change this right now!)

I'm glad I went through and explained this actually--and why I feel this thread getting attention is so important. I want my designs to be scrutinized, because that's where flaws can be pointed out and fixed! Thanks for your input, and your healthy level of doubt, haha.

EDIT:

Noir, do you think you could give this another look and leave your feedback? By making her mobility feel less "If I don't use it all up in 10 seconds, I wasted this cooldown," I think I made the kit flow more easily as a whole--still focusing on positioning and luring in/singling out enemies and maintaining high instant/burst mobility, but without making the player feel like they're "losing out" by using their abilities.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Like you mentioned, everything in her kit works towards the playstyle of "lure, use, forget." She's no longer "just about mobility," it's this mobility that she has access to that allows her to lure, use, and forget. She's not just about "using her abilities," now, she's all about catching enemies alone and off-guard, then closing the gap between them.

What does "closing the gap" here with this redesign do? Not only does it allow her to use her (shorter-ranged but more rewarding) Fox-Fire, but cut enemies off and position for a Charm -> Drain combo.

I'd go into greater depth on this, but I've more than likely already explained how the kit acts as a unified whole in the "Play and Counterplay" section near the bottom--which is what people tend to not read whenever they say "no dude what you've done here is completely wrong and wouldn't work."

The fact that her playstyle works into her lore and source material is just a sign of a champion that has potential for a higher level of unity, which is why I kept her instead of cutting her (like Irelia--who is completely unworkable from this standpoint).
And here I would have to agree again - the common 'I rush up to you 3 times and then E W Q' is already pretty much present on Ahri.

It's an entirely different playstyle we're giving to her with this Redesign, but now I'm already convinced this would work - regardless of how you like it. I'm not sure how or if I like it better, I just know it's for the best in terms of her as a character over-all, from gameplay through lore to readability to counterplay.


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Moons

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Like you mentioned, everything in her kit works towards the playstyle of "lure, use, forget." She's no longer "just about mobility," it's this mobility that she has access to that allows her to lure, use, and forget. She's not just about "using her abilities," now, she's all about catching enemies alone and off-guard, then closing the gap between them.

What does "closing the gap" here with this redesign do? Not only does it allow her to use her (shorter-ranged but more rewarding) Fox-Fire, but cut enemies off and position for a Charm -> Drain combo.



I'm glad I went through and explained this actually--and why I feel this thread getting attention is so important. I want my designs to be scrutinized, because that's where flaws can be pointed out and fixed! Thanks for your input, and your healthy level of doubt, haha.
You are welcome. I gotta admit that my level of doubt is really high for a channeling - very mobile champion, but I guess we would have to put it into practice before saying; "No, it wont work" or "Hell yes".
I would like to add something else which is on my mind. Ahri is multiple, not single - target oriented. This is why her ult is such a powerfull tool. And I am not quite sure how it could work with your idea of Q.
Its probably because there is no champion that offers such a kit. It was you who made me think about it that way.This is why I'm glad that you made such a thread, guys. This is the best part of the LoL community.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoirTheBlack View Post
You are welcome. I gotta admit that my level of doubt is really high for a channeling - very mobile champion, but I guess we would have to put it into practice before saying; "No, it wont work" or "Hell yes".
I would like to add something else which is on my mind. Ahri is multiple, not single - target oriented. This is why her ult is such a powerfull tool. And I am not quite sure how it could work with your idea of Q.
Its probably because there is no champion that offers such a kit. It was you who made me think about it that way.This is why I'm glad that you made such a thread, guys. This is the best part of the LoL community.
Yep - agreed, Ahri Redesign is one of those Redesigns where it's still a bit tricky on paper (I realize I've just said it would work 3 seconds ago, but that's just because I can visualize it pretty well), but let's keep it on a 'guess we'll have to find out' for now.

And for the last part; no problem dude, we are so extremely glad me and ItemsGuy have bumped into eachother and even meeting some very awesome people here in this thread, including you.

It really makes everything worth it regardless of the outcome of all of this.

EDIT: That said - tonight I will post a comment to continue the discussion we had at the start when Morello entered here (in terms of the discussion me and itemsguy had with morello) I would ask everyone to be kind enough to not instantly downvote the comment/post I'll be posting - as it is fairly large but worth the read.

I'll be including comments in this very thread aswell as the matter of 'oversaturation' Morello hasn't given his thoughts/opinion on just yet. Thank you all for contributing here guys - this is just great.

PS: I already have a hard time calming myself when I see people downvoting ItemsGuy right here if he comes with another WoT, no offense guys but you do realize he's the largest factor we are able to have this discussion here right ?

If it wasn't for him, you wouldn't be here, you wouldn't have seen this thread, you wouldn't have seen Morello's input, you wouldn't be able to downvote my friend who dedicates a lot of time in all of this. Aswell as I do.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoirTheBlack View Post
You are welcome. I gotta admit that my level of doubt is really high for a channeling - very mobile champion, but I guess we would have to put it into practice before saying; "No, it wont work" or "Hell yes".
I would like to add something else which is on my mind. Ahri is multiple, not single - target oriented. This is why her ult is such a powerfull tool. And I am not quite sure how it could work with your idea of Q.
Its probably because there is no champion that offers such a kit. It was you who made me think about it that way.This is why I'm glad that you made such a thread, guys. This is the best part of the LoL community.
Shoot dude, I'm tearing up. ;_;

Although a distinction here I'd like to make (and probably where that extra pinch of doubt may be coming in) is that I've actually changed Ahri from a champion that revels in multi-target encounters to one that's all about foxing out weakened and isolated foes--this is more due to theme + kit/playstyle coherence, being the ultimate "(9-Tailed) Fox" champion. The characteristics of both of those (as the nature of the "fox" informs the legend of the gumiho/kitsune) are reflected in Ahri's new kit and playstyle.

Likewise, I took away a lot of Brand's single-target effectiveness and immediacy/"snappiness" in favor of spreading his flames and keeping them burning--it creates really defined kits and playstyles that are so flavorful because they get that intimate with the source material and theming! This level of definition is really cool to me and I think it's what's best for LoL as a game--and of course, all I'm saying in here is "just talk" and I'd love nothing more than to just get to work and put all of this theorycraft to the test! If Riot thinks I've "got the stuff," I might even get to do a bit of that this summer. ; )


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phatcat09

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is generally the issue that makes this tough - good post.
Your design goals make this tough have you ever thought about fundamentally changing them?

Why is it so important to have an Ranged AD character be the carry.


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BiggerFish

Senior Member

01-24-2013

In all honesty, I think that they need to concentrate less on New champs and more on modernizing OLD champs. Trist/WW/Yi to name some of the biggest offenders.


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DoozleDorf

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Going to post this tonight dude - want an answer aswell, I'll be continue'ing the discussion we had with morello, I'm going to include your 'oversaturation' post.
I'll be here


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by phatcat09 View Post
Your design goals make this tough have you ever thought about fundamentally changing them?

Why is it so important to have an Ranged AD character be the carry.
Because I think - also due to the OP of the dude where Morello responded too, you need to tweak these characters and add more to their kits or otherwise they'll be broken designs in terms of being either UP or OP.

Tryndamere the perfect example of something that is UP right now and OP in the past. Faceless Void in DotA ? His ultimate ? One of the most broken things I have ever seen in a game, it offers no counterplay and in my opinion is totally toxic.