Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? @Morello @Feralpony @IronStylus @Xypherous

First Riot Post
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Ding an Sich

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by thepantsparty View Post
I'm with you. I think champions like Jax, Irelia, etc, who are basically "auto-attack-heavy bruisers" are the way to go with the concept of melee carries.
As morello has trolled/hinted, if you seem to like that you'll be severely disappointed then when the opposite occurs (nerfs to this particular style).


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Cuix

Senior Member

01-23-2013

I can't begin to understand why ItemsGuy's posts are getting downvoted.


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Pushover

Senior Member

01-23-2013

I think at this point my biggest problem about champions right now is that a lot of the niche champions have such a small role that they almost never get picked. In my mind, there are a few 'main' champions, which will always be decent in any team composition, maybe not the best, but always acceptable. A champion like Ahri is just all around good, has fine laning, good ganks, fine teamfighting, fine poking, throughout the whole game.
A niche pick is someone like TF, as he has fine laning, excellent ganks, good poke, but weaker teamfighting towards the lategame. So you can start to pick a team around his advantages, shore up his disadvantages. This is why TF is a good niche pick -- he has some greater strengths than a 'main' champion of that role, and a team can build to take advantage of them. Niche picks add good depth to the game, allowing someone with greater understanding of how strong each champion is to be at an advantage when picking a team composition.
The problem is that there are a large number of niche picks that are better under way too specific conditions, which add complexity, as players need to remember what they do should they ever get picked, but not much depth. When, for example, would you pick Fizz, and how would you build a team to take advantage of him? He has strong laning, strong ganks, but bad poke, and bad teamfighting, and it's enough to make him almost never picked. Xerath or Viktor? How do you build a team around them, and are there better alternatives to them? How about someone like Sivir? What makes Sivir a better choice than the majority of other ADCs?
I guess what I am saying is that some of the niche picks need to get minor buffs or changes for them to be more viable. Sometimes a niche pick is actually really strong (sleepers), but generally they get quickly nerfed, often to the point where they don't offer anything in their role.


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Daemon

Senior Member

01-23-2013

I'll reiterate this from before, but lately, the idea of "unique and original" is "complicated mechanics".

What about a champion with a permanent companion that does something? Orianna has the Ball, but it is basically a sphere she controls. She does nothing herself. Lulu has Pix, but it just supplements whoever he is attached to. Zed has his Shadows, but they are basically like a non-permanent Pix. There is really no "companion" feel to any of the aforementioned champions. They are just there. The idea of a twin champion has been said before and I think something along the lines of that would be a fresh addition.

Crazy mechanics are cool and all, but there is a huge gap between "awesome flashy mechanics" and actual player skill. The average person is ~1200 ELO. While it's nice to see the top 1% of players pulling off awesome moves with a complicated champion, your typical player tends to not get it. Considering most players are at ~1200 ELO, champions should be able to be played decently at that level while the high ELOs will be able to pull off some awesome plays. It's hard to make a champion like that. Diana--for example--is a champion who does this well. You Q things, ult to them. She's really straightforward, almost like an easier-to-play Akali. Now if you watch Scarra play with her, he's going to pull off some really good plays that you might not see at ~1200 ELO. Zed, Syndra, Kha'zix, Rengar, Draven, Zyra...they are what I refer to as "high ELO champions". Lower level players just can't play them well...or at all. There is too much going on. It's overwhelming.

But this brings up the question: Do we create for the average player or for tournament play? Do we balance the game around the average player or tournaments?



If anyone is interested in discussing stuff with me, you can find me at: http://loldaemon.tumblr.com/

I'm a pretty nice person, so feel free to tell me how wrong I am. Or right, if that's the case.


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Daemon

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauron View Post
I can't begin to understand why ItemsGuy's posts are getting downvoted.

Something about him being a jerk on tumblr? Dunno.

He deleted his account, so there must have been something bad.


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Jocular

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox P McCloud View Post
There's only 3 melee carries in the game and none of them are good; what are you going to do about this?
They already did something. They stopped making (AD) melee carries.

In the current game with slows, taunts, fears, blinds, and stuns it really isn't surprising that a squishy champion with tons of damage can't just walk into melee range and murder you without your team preventing it. And as a team game, that's as it should be.

For a good team you want strengths and weaknesses, and the tradeoffs/balancing would require them to either become an assassin of sorts or more tanky like a bruiser. The thing about carries is that the tradeoff for their massive damage potential is no surviveability and that is mitigated reasonably by the fact that they have range.


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Terrosin

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Junior Member

01-23-2013

asdad


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Jocular

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pushover242 View Post
I think at this point my biggest problem about champions right now is that a lot of the niche champions have such a small role that they almost never get picked. In my mind, there are a few 'main' champions, which will always be decent in any team composition, maybe not the best, but always acceptable. A champion like Ahri is just all around good, has fine laning, good ganks, fine teamfighting, fine poking, throughout the whole game.
A niche pick is someone like TF, as he has fine laning, excellent ganks, good poke, but weaker teamfighting towards the lategame. So you can start to pick a team around his advantages, shore up his disadvantages. This is why TF is a good niche pick -- he has some greater strengths than a 'main' champion of that role, and a team can build to take advantage of them. Niche picks add good depth to the game, allowing someone with greater understanding of how strong each champion is to be at an advantage when picking a team composition.
The problem is that there are a large number of niche picks that are better under way too specific conditions, which add complexity, as players need to remember what they do should they ever get picked, but not much depth. When, for example, would you pick Fizz, and how would you build a team to take advantage of him? He has strong laning, strong ganks, but bad poke, and bad teamfighting, and it's enough to make him almost never picked. Xerath or Viktor? How do you build a team around them, and are there better alternatives to them? How about someone like Sivir? What makes Sivir a better choice than the majority of other ADCs?
I guess what I am saying is that some of the niche picks need to get minor buffs or changes for them to be more viable. Sometimes a niche pick is actually really strong (sleepers), but generally they get quickly nerfed, often to the point where they don't offer anything in their role.
This ^

I know this would never work, but on those types of champions that really don't bring anything to the table... rework or consolidate/delete and meld the good qualities into another champion.


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Vulking

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Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ding an Sich View Post
As morello has trolled/hinted, if you seem to like that you'll be severely disappointed then when the opposite occurs (nerfs to this particular style).
That's why I (in the post that is being quoted by him) said that I think Riot is taking the wrong approach, They have a perfectly viable, melee carry, he can be countered, but if not he can carry just like a ranged ADC, Jax himself is not that tanky, most of the time his tankyness come from his R and good use of his E, however he is still counterable, and his laning phase pre 6 isn't all that good since he is not a lane bully like other current tops.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jocular View Post
They already did something. They stopped making (AD) melee carries.
And that was an awful, solution, a Melee Carry dont need to be invincible but need to be though enough to deal its damage, that's why Jax work so well, because he can get really tanky for a short period of time but long enough to actually do his job, which is the same thing Ranged Carry champs do but instead of tank damage they most of the time dodge it (unless super fed were they can just lifesteal tank it).


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Daemon

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jocular View Post
They already did something. They stopped making (AD) melee carries.

In the current game with slows, taunts, fears, blinds, and stuns it really isn't surprising that a squishy champion with tons of damage can't just walk into melee range and murder you without your team preventing it. And as a team game, that's as it should be.

For a good team you want strengths and weaknesses, and the tradeoffs/balancing would require them to either become an assassin of sorts or more tanky like a bruiser. The thing about carries is that the tradeoff for their massive damage potential is no surviveability and that is mitigated reasonably by the fact that they have range.
Technically, we have:
  • Talon
  • Pantheon
  • Zed
  • Fiora
  • Tryndamere
  • Kha'zix

Zed and Kha'zix are becoming staples of high level play, Talon a bit less and Pantheon occasionally. Fiora and Tryndamere don't have the sort of mechanics that would make them viable anywhere. Zed and Kha'zix have very safe pokes, Talon is a good counter mid, Pantheon is a 1v1 monster.

I'm not 100% sure if Fiora and Tryndamere can be considered AD melee carries since you build attack speed on them (I guess they are more along the lines of Xin Zhao). I tend to classify "jungling" champions with a subtype, because the types of junglers are very diverse although the meta favors tankier junglers over ones with high damage output.