Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? @Morello @Feralpony @IronStylus @Xypherous

First Riot Post
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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATastyDessert View Post

Why a channeled ult on Ashe would not work is because:
1) It's a channel
2) As a ranged carry she should be mobile and NOT stationary.
3) If the other team sees her preparing to ult, they will expect ir and EASILY flash out of the way. If you knew Ashe was going to ult 2 seconds in advance, you don't think it will be easy to avoid?
4) Seeing Ashe begin her cast will mean the other team can CC her and instantly end her ult.
5) The reason Cait's ult works is because it is homing. Think about it. Caitlyn's ult coming at you from far away and you see via marker. You step to the side (voila avoided).
6) I do know about Caitlyn's ult being used as an iniation as well as a finisher. However, Caitlyn's kit does not revolve around her ult. It's about her range and her traps. Ashe without her ult makes a very weak ranged carry. You don't end fights with Ashe's ult. You start them. But Caitlyn's ult can be blocked by a tank and be rendered useless (still do a bit of damage thoufh) while Ashe's ult is primarily used for stuns not damage. If a tank soaks it ult because of the telegraphing channel, it will do nothing.
1. You're repeating it's a channel, this is no explanation or argument.
2. Current Ashe already lacks mobility while she offers cc and utility to her team, yet again this is no argument.
3. The Ashe Redesign focuses on sniping people off with her ult/initiating, I've already explained why it's currently pretty toxic in lane in terms of counterplay.
4. If an Ashe chooses to do this wich is stupid in the first place as she doesn't make full use of her surprising initiation tool (ulting from the fog of war) this is no more than general mechanics - similar like Katarina ult is perfectly interruptable.
5. I've never said Caitlyn ult doesn't work - you are using this as an argument but how does it contribute to anything ? Also the counterplay against cait ult is clear as day - your tank/somebody else can tank the damage, Ashe ult in lane ? NOTHING aside from 'yeah burn your flash to escape this extremely fast traveling projectile.
6.I've never said Ashe's ult is used for damage - I've said from the start it's all about initiating an the Redesign encourages that even more, even improving on the current counterplay of Ashe, then what exactly are you trying to prove.

Aside from that, I'd appreciate if you gave a full rundown on every counter-argument I have given (concerning Varus and Annie and so forth) - it looks like you are avoiding them.

Funfact: IronStylus has red our previous threads and checked out Redesigns - wether he agrees with our theory or not, he did approve of some Redesigns to be quite interesting.

Such as Ashe Redesign, utimatetly you discussing that her ult has two stances right now is one of those examples that should be immediately readable and logical at first - Ashe, I have no idea what arguments you have against this, I gave you my approval of fiddlesticks though.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-18-2013

Could you get back at all of those points you've fired at me I have respond with a counterargument ? : )

@ATastyDessert


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-18-2013

Okay, gonna boil down all of your arguments here, ATastyDessert;

-This guy clicks this thread and immediately posts 'This is like their 8th thread' and downvotes, afterwards he says he hasn't read a single OP, leaves a huge impression he didn't read this OP either (wich contains all of the reasoning behind our design-philosophy) and immediately skips onto the Redesigns, bashing on them afterwards - while they are a seperate, stand-alone, subjective part of this thread.

Kinda unfair, our OP is where it's all about for the most part - the Redesigns are possible, yet subjective solutions, eventhough I'm pretty much convinced 9 out of 10 of them would work just fine.

Argument #1: Annie is way too dependant on Tibbers ! Bad !, I reply with:

Annie Redesign has the ultimate 'Big Daddy - Little Sister playstyle' wich is not only cool in terms of finally having a pet champion that has been asked for for such a long time now, it also makes sense themetically !

Looking at Annie's splash art you wouldn't expect this girl to do all the damage - you get this sadistic twisted child has something to do with the huge demonic flaming bear, but it's a kind of a watered down experience of playing Annie seeing that Tibbers is of little relevance to her kit on top of all the problems she has along with that: her needless 'stun for the sake of stun' mechanic and so forth.

Not really surprised by that though, Annie is really old.


ATastyDessert doesn't come back at this - I doubt he even red it.

Argument#2: Makes a good point about a possible flaw of Fiddlesticks Redesign. I approve of that yet doesn't come back at me with the current issues fiddlesticks has as a design:

'Current Fiddlesticks has alot of flaws, especially concerning depth and counterplay (as explained below his redesign link): His 'if you are in range you'll eat a 3 second fear' (trust me if they'd redesign fiddle they'd get rid of this), along with his 'if you are in range you are going to eat these silences' along with his drain that waters his experience down as a scarecrow. Much like we can't have an actual champion that plays like an actual bird as Anivia is already designed, having a kit that would rather fit a 'wizard specialized in the art of ice magic' rather than an ice phoenix (only her passive lives up to this currently - explained in the explanation below her redesign link).'

ATastyDessert doesn't come back at this - I doubt he even red it.

Argument#3: Channeled spell on an ADC such as Ashe Redesign is bad, look at Varus, you max your Q last most of the time, on top of that his ult isn't instantenous ! I reply:

Yet Varus ult has more counterplay than Ashe ult as you are able to walk out of range to prevent the ult from spreading.

Q, because of the channel, is usually maxed after E.
His Q is mostly maxed after his E because Q isn't rewarding enough when channeeled as Varus's kit is most effective when rapidly denotating blight stacks, hence E is more favourable in plently of occasions. It's not the channel that is the problem, it's Varus's kit that doesn't make his full-channeled Q favourable.

Ashe Redesign would perfectly make use of these channels (especially in the laning phase)


ATastyDessert doesn't come back at this - I doubt he even red it.

Argument#5: About Ezreal Redesign: If his kit is good enough to be damaging without his passive, then there is almost no point to it. ATastyDessert fails to explain why there is no point to a passive that empowers your abilities when you've moved alot.

Argument#6: Making a ranged ad carry have a channel ult that is used for INITIATION is not a good idea. A reason why Caitlyn's ult works as a channel is that it is generally used as a finisher.

I explained him Caitlyn's ult is more used as poke for a maximal guarenteed damage output - ATastyDessert doesn't come back at me approving of that (eventhough we could see today at IEM countless of times where Caitlyn ult is instantly used whenever it came off cooldown, used before a fight started)

Then here are the arguments of an AD can't have an channeled ult:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATastyDessert View Post
Why a channeled ult on Ashe would not work is because:
1) It's a channel
2) As a ranged carry she should be mobile and NOT stationary.
3) If the other team sees her preparing to ult, they will expect ir and EASILY flash out of the way. If you knew Ashe was going to ult 2 seconds in advance, you don't think it will be easy to avoid?
4) Seeing Ashe begin her cast will mean the other team can CC her and instantly end her ult.
5) The reason Cait's ult works is because it is homing. Think about it. Caitlyn's ult coming at you from far away and you see via marker. You step to the side (voila avoided).
6) I do know about Caitlyn's ult being used as an iniation as well as a finisher. However, Caitlyn's kit does not revolve around her ult. It's about her range and her traps. Ashe without her ult makes a very weak ranged carry. You don't end fights with Ashe's ult. You start them. But Caitlyn's ult can be blocked by a tank and be rendered useless (still do a bit of damage thoufh) while Ashe's ult is primarily used for stuns not damage. If a tank soaks it ult because of the telegraphing channel, it will do nothing.
'I have no idea what to make of this, I responded with this: 1. You're repeating it's a channel, this is no explanation or argument.
2. Current Ashe already lacks mobility while she offers cc and utility to her team, yet again this is no argument.
3. The Ashe Redesign focuses on sniping people off with her ult/initiating, I've already explained why it's currently pretty toxic in lane in terms of counterplay.
4. If an Ashe chooses to do this wich is stupid in the first place as she doesn't make full use of her surprising initiation tool (ulting from the fog of war) this is no more than general mechanics - similar like Katarina ult is perfectly interruptable.
5. I've never said Caitlyn ult doesn't work - you are using this as an argument but how does it contribute to anything ? Also the counterplay against cait ult is clear as day - your tank/somebody else can tank the damage, Ashe ult in lane ? NOTHING aside from 'yeah burn your flash to escape this extremely fast traveling projectile.
6.I've never said Ashe's ult is used for damage - I've said from the start it's all about initiating an the Redesign encourages that even more, even improving on the current counterplay of Ashe, then what exactly are you trying to prove.

Aside from that, I'd appreciate if you gave a full rundown on every counter-argument I have given (concerning Varus and Annie and so forth) - it looks like you are avoiding them.

Funfact: IronStylus has red our previous threads and checked out Redesigns - wether he agrees with our theory or not, he did approve of some Redesigns to be quite interesting.

Such as Ashe Redesign, utimatetly you discussing that her ult has two stances right now is one of those examples that should be immediately readable and logical at first - Ashe, I have no idea what arguments you have against this, I gave you my approval of fiddlesticks though.'


ATastyDessert doesn't come back at this either, I doubt he has even read it.

TLDR: ATastyDessert instantly downvoted, made a irrelevant hostile comment right off the bat, spews out statements I even consider to explain/counterargument in detail yet it seems he can't be bothered to come back at them. GD delivers. I'm still patiently waiting dude - you are invited to explain.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-18-2013

Going to bed - goodnight NA !


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Samuel Lyon

Member

01-18-2013

bump


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-18-2013

Alright, I'm back!

Dessert, I'm not sure if I'm covering all your arguments in this, but let's see what I can handle from memory:

Ezreal- You're well aware what his ult does, right? Perhaps I should've mentioned that it's on a single-digit cooldown? He's dependent on moving for effectiveness (defined playstyle with defined counterplay), yes, but he also has the tools to do it. That's what I focus on. Like Darius--his strength lies in keeping enemies close to him, which he is more than capable of doing.

Ashe- "B-b-but channel!" So what? The point of this ability (and her other channeled abilities) is that you're not going to be using them when people are all up in your face. Ashe is at her strongest when she can focus--charging her cone, charging her AoE, charging her ult--so if you want to cut down that effectiveness, just get up-close and personal with her and don't give her that luxury. She's all about that tension of pulling back the bowstring, so playing her leaves you with more decisions to make--how far do you "pull back" in terms of playing Ashe? When? As opposed to "oh my cone is up I'mma fire" and "bam f*ck you point-blank ult stun so I can win this duel" and so on.

Annie- "B-b-but useless without Tibbers!" If you're going to continue to get attention in this thread, you're going to have to somehow wrap your mind around the concept of defined strengths and defined weaknesses. Is Annie defenseless without Tibbers? Of course! But with Tibbers, not only does she have a disjointed source of damage (a la Orianna ball, Zed shadow)--meaning that she doesn't really have to risk much to go on the offensive--but one that's more or less a walking no-zone. Tibbers has a dash, a damaging aura, an AoE nuke/DoT, and--with Annie's ult--some crowd control and bonus damage on top of that. Playing Annie well is all about managing Tibbers and making sure he stays alive so he can make sure YOU stay alive. It's no longer about counting to five and then flashing in and stunning everyone, but about the ultimate "Big Daddy/Little Sister" playstyle--which is what you'd expect from looking at her design/splash art anyway, not for this huge bear to have such little impact aside from the nuke that's associated with his appearance.

Fiddlesticks- Fidds here is much like TF in that he's not terribly great with teamfights, but has devastating ganks and powerful map control. "But you can kill his scarecrows as soon as he pops them up!" Not only are you assuming that Fiddlesticks would pop his scarecrows mid-fight, you're also forgetting that when somebody destroys one (within a set range), they're going to eat his current level of Cry Murder. He's all about maintaining psychological leverage and taking advantage of the element of surprise (which his current kit does somewhat but doesn't really capitalize on)--putting up his Scarecrows in every bush possible and keeping a careful eye out for gank opportunities. Exploding with his ult out of a Dark Wind-powered Crowstorm means that not only is he going to appear out of nowhere and do tons of AoE damage, he's going to bring %Mpen and an AoE fear along with him. "Teamfights can't work for Fiddlesticks!" Incorrect--teamfights will work incredibly well for Fiddlesticks, if your team strategizes around your Scarecrows and allows you to use your abilities to devastating effects. I can understand how you'd be put off by his "trickiness"--he's going from "incredibly low skill cap" to "respectably high skill cap." Also remember, Cry Murder decreases sight range over time, so he's still useful even if he isn't getting to take full advantage of Scarecrows, just much less so! (Decreased range on an ADC means whoah--they're suddenly not doing damage anymore)

I think that's all of them, but get back to me if you have any more misconceptions regarding my redesigns!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Lyon View Post
bump
While I/we certainly appreciate the bump, do you have any input to give on this thread? If you're from one of our previous threads and are just bumping out of principle, you could say that instead.

As much as I like this thread being on the front page for people to see, what I value the most is thoughtful discussion and cooperative problem-solving! If you have anything to say regarding what we've said in the OP or about the redesigns (in general or in particular), good or bad, please feel free to tell us!


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-18-2013

Oh! One other note (regarding Dessert), I think you might've mentioned Akali, asking how her ult would work.

You're probably thinking "oh this is stupid, I can't use this to deal more damage! what a useless ability!"--but that is not so. You see, the whole point of her ultimate is distraction. Want to gank top but they're being too passive because you just went missing from mid? Pop your ult on a champ bot, watch your teammates' lane opponents blow though all their summoner spells, and then hide at their tower as your clone disappears with a smoke bomb. "Oh, Akali just ganked bot, guess I can push out top and be aggressive because she's on the other side of the map."

Wrong!

Akali was in the river bush the entire time, and as you were watching what happened bot (your teammates were pinging like crazy), Akali prepared two Qs and dashed over to you. Bot lane takes some of your shadow clone's damage, top gets a free kill, it's all a good day.

Another instance of this would be teamfights. Got some pesky peels on the enemy team? Want to blow through some of their flashes? Stay hidden and pop your ult on their carry--afraid of all those exhausts? Well, no longer!

Enemy positioning is unfavorable for you? Draw their attention elsewhere by popping your ult on one of their nearby allies, watch them bunch towards it as their carry sits behind them (now between you and their teammates), and you jump in and finish the job while they sit there dumbfounded and unable to retaliate because their abilities are on cooldown.

You see, two little things I like to add to a lot of these kits are called "skill cap" and "gameplay depth!" While I want the nature of these kits to be easy to read and even easier to grasp (fire dude setting things on fire, bull rushing into your team with reckless rage, Poison Ivy overrunning the map with her plants), I don't want them to be straightforward to the point of not really having much flexibility with it--and in that vein, I want the ability to master this flexibility to be what separates the good players from the great ones. Complexity for the sake of complexity is bad--I instead give players access to more options as their grasp of the kit becomes surer and steadier! With Akali here, there's a bit more to her than simply throwing Qs whenever you can and dashing at the right times (disengaging and escaping with her shroud, of course)--you won't ever really get the use of her full kit if you can't think like the deadly shadow assassin, using every trick up your sleeve and tool at your disposal to get the job done!


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Oh! One other note (regarding Dessert), I think you might've mentioned Akali, asking how her ult would work.
Thank you for clarifying, now I get the purpose and the strong theming aspect of the ability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Lyon View Post
bump
Thanks dude - though what ItemsGuy says, if you could leave your opinion here about this thread or checking a few redesigns would be awesome


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Whyumai

Senior Member

01-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
III - PLAYSTYLE & COUNTERPLAY:

How is a playstyle defined ?



The more distinctive a playstyle is, the more counterplay there is to it.

Darius is a very good example of this - Darius has a very distinctive playstyle, he has very defined strength and weaknesses. CertainlyT, the designer of Darius:

'What changes you might make on Darius in the future?' - someone asked CertainlyT



Click here for a the source/full thread - they can't nerf Darius or he'll really be underpowered.

Click here for 'I think I finally understand Darius' - a thread having 190+ upvotes of how Darius works and is not OP.

A champion that excells at alot of things, not really having specific strengths and weaknesses (hello 'release Jayce' syndrome) tends to be more imbalanced; very frustrating to play or very frustrating to play against (the champion provides less options of counterplay).


EDIT: Click here for a thread called 'Morello, IF you had the change to redesign Darius, what would you do ?'

Yet again - the more distinctive a playstyle is, the more counterplay there is to it. Morello seems to have got it, he lays even more emphasis on the fact/playstyle of Darius: 'The longer he is close, the more he'll be able to wreck balls' - I've shown this to ItemsGuy and he liked it. It makes Darius more readable (more understandable), less frustrating and pushes his theme: This guy will hack and slash if you're near and will do a devastating blow if you stook around for too long - like an executioner having to chop more than once - then one last time to finally chop the head off.
This sticks out to me, alot of what you have posted I don't agree with. This in particular though.

The thread you mention (but link incorrectly too):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynfall View Post
I finally get it. He's not actually overpowered, it's that his kit is designed to punish mistakes.

He slows your movement and attack speeds if you are too close to him.

He has a short-range pull to get you close to him

He has a short range, predictable AoE poke

All of these things only affect you if you are close to him...Darius really likes it when you are in his range.

So what happens if you get hit by all of the above? You get hit by his ult, something so powerful because it's SUPPOSED to be powerful. It's supposed to be the ultimate slap to the face for being an idiot for allowing Darius to hit you with everything he's got beforehand.

So with all this I come to the conclusion that Darius isn't actually overpowered, it's that he is designed and meant to stomp your face if you do something stupid. He's a champion designed with the express purpose in mind to cut a very deep wound in you ONLY if you allow him to.

That's why he can be so hit and miss sometimes - his true potential only comes if he is allowed to harm you, and that's why pro players rarely, if ever, complain about Darius: because they rarely make mistakes.

One of Darius's quotes: "Make no mistakes."
Essentially the "counter play" is not to go near him.

If you go near him you die then he gets fed (and you don't get fed at all) but if you don't go near him he free farms and get's fed that way (while you don't get fed at all). This means that you actually have to go near him (I'm assuming he'll be near the minions in your lane but if he's afk at his nexus I guess this doesn't apply - but hey, DDoS attacks counter everything I suppose). The counter play isn't actually a counter at all.

This means that the actual counters to Darius are Teemo, Kayle and Kennen. All of which are ranged and typically faster than Darius. However even when played well these counters can be beaten by Darius

This is because it requires much more skill to beat Darius in lane than Darius actually requires to beat them in lane.

That's not good counter play. That's part of the problem with Darius and part of the problem with your argument. Good play styles are typically champion that are well defined for their role (regardless of whatever that might be), this makes it harder to beat them even if they do have counter play available.

It's also worth noting that Irelia is an example of this. She has a clearly defined distinctive playstyle but is designed too well at her role. It's why she seems to be nerfed all the time. In fact most of the examples you could give for problematic champions fall into this category.

Heimer is designed to push towers quickly. It's because of this playstyle that Heimer is nerfed consistently without any real buffs. Meanwhile he has a clear and well defined turtling play style with well defined available counters. Having said that he's currently nerfed to a fairly useless state because his clearly defined distinctive play style is actually quite toxic. if he wins his lane then typically he'll smash straight through their tower. Win the lane a couple of times and he's approaching on their inhib (of whatever lane he's currently in).

Eve is another champion that has a clearly defined distinctive play style that is extremely problematic. While I could go on and on with more and more champions as examples (interestingly enough karma is another example) I think the point is either clear or you'll never get it.

The problem with play styles is that the better tuned a champion is to fill a certain play style (regardless of how niche the role) the more problematic that champion tends to be.

Anyway, I could make arguments against most of what's in the OP but this is the only one that really sticks out to me as wrong. A better "play style" does not always make a champion better. I can't think of a champion where I can honestly say that the "play style" or how well suited it is to that "play style" actually makes the champion "better". Although I guess these are quite subjective terms without any substantial meaning at all which, may in fact, be part of the problem.

I guess it's well presented though, so kudos for that.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whyumai View Post
This sticks out to me, alot of what you have posted I don't agree with. This in particular though.

The thread you mention (but link incorrectly too):



Essentially the "counter play" is not to go near him.

If you go near him you die then he gets fed (and you don't get fed at all) but if you don't go near him he free farms and get's fed that way (while you don't get fed at all). This means that you actually have to go near him (I'm assuming he'll be near the minions in your lane but if he's afk at his nexus I guess this doesn't apply - but hey, DDoS attacks counter everything I suppose). The counter play isn't actually a counter at all.

This means that the actual counters to Darius are Teemo, Kayle and Kennen. All of which are ranged and typically faster than Darius. However even when played well these counters can be beaten by Darius

This is because it requires much more skill to beat Darius in lane than Darius actually requires to beat them in lane.

That's not good counter play. That's part of the problem with Darius and part of the problem with your argument. Good play styles are typically champion that are well defined for their role (regardless of whatever that might be), this makes it harder to beat them even if they do have counter play available.

It's also worth noting that Irelia is an example of this. She has a clearly defined distinctive playstyle but is designed too well at her role. It's why she seems to be nerfed all the time. In fact most of the examples you could give for problematic champions fall into this category.

Heimer is designed to push towers quickly. It's because of this playstyle that Heimer is nerfed consistently without any real buffs. Meanwhile he has a clear and well defined turtling play style with well defined available counters. Having said that he's currently nerfed to a fairly useless state because his clearly defined distinctive play style is actually quite toxic. if he wins his lane then typically he'll smash straight through their tower. Win the lane a couple of times and he's approaching on their inhib (of whatever lane he's currently in).

Eve is another champion that has a clearly defined distinctive play style that is extremely problematic. While I could go on and on with more and more champions as examples (interestingly enough karma is another example) I think the point is either clear or you'll never get it.

The problem with play styles is that the better tuned a champion is to fill a certain play style (regardless of how niche the role) the more problematic that champion tends to be.

Anyway, I could make arguments against most of what's in the OP but this is the only one that really sticks out to me as wrong. A better "play style" does not always make a champion better. I can't think of a champion where I can honestly say that the "play style" or how well suited it is to that "play style" actually makes the champion "better". Although I guess these are quite subjective terms without any substantial meaning at all which, may in fact, be part of the problem.

I guess it's well presented though, so kudos for that.
Gimme a few minutes - I'll come back at this later, and yeah Darius is a tricky case as the possible solutions Morello provides could be considered to be quite legit. : )