Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? @Morello @Feralpony @IronStylus @Xypherous

First Riot Post
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YamiBelgarath

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01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by phatcat09 View Post
To reiterate my point.

Unique -- generally means how "not straight forward" something is i.e creative implmentation

Original -- Never been seen before.

I find Thresh's kit creative, but I don't find any of the elements original. I believe originality comes from how you have to use the abilities vs the abilities themselves.

Lee Sin - Original
Karthus - Unique
Orianna - Original
Graves - Unique
Syndra - Unique
Master Yi - Original

At least that's how I feel about it.
Erm...you are really going to confuse people with that language, I think. Unique means the only thing of it's kind. Original means you've never seen it before. Something can be unique but not original, maybe the original copy was destroyed or something. Something can also be original not unique, if you made multiple copies at the same time. You can't really just arbitrarily change the English language to fit your preferences unless the majority agrees, which I am not aware of having happened. Just say "creative" when you mean "creative".

I think in LoL, though, unique and original are pretty much the same thing because the original copy will always still exist, at least as far as champions go.

I don't know enough MOBA's to say what is original and what isn't, but I would class every single champion you listed as creative, because those are all examples of champions who do interesting things and have fun mechanics.


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This champ is OP

Junior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by phatcat09 View Post
To reiterate my point.

Unique -- generally means how "not straight forward" something is i.e creative implmentation

Original -- Never been seen before.

I find Thresh's kit creative, but I don't find any of the elements original. I believe originality comes from how you have to use the abilities vs the abilities themselves.

Lee Sin - Original
Karthus - Unique
Orianna - Original
Graves - Unique
Syndra - Unique
Master Yi - Original

At least that's how I feel about it.
Don't forget when everybody was getting their mind blown by...*gasp* CRESCENT SKILLSHOTS (Diana, that was original and still balanced)

@morello I'm sure the direction you guys are going can't be that bad, I mean thresh isn't bad, he's definitely a great champion, and I enjoy him not being blatantly gamechanging. His lantern is definitely original as it fills the niche of a purely support oriented skill (shield/blink for an ally) similar to lux's , but better and cooler.

It's the little things that I think people enjoy, the little things that offer variety, so that nothing gets stale. What I noticed is the lack of map variation. By variation, I mean look at Rift Noir, that offers a "fresh" outlook on a known map without sacrificing balance at all.

By the way, since I spoke of nidalee, I think I should bring it up just because you're reading this post already and this sentence isn't that much of a burden to read:
Her spears are still invisible at times when thrown from out of the enemy's vision (so they just see it at the last second once it hits them) due to the way FoW interacts with projectiles it seems.


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Whelk

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01-23-2013

So, and this might seem strange or foolish, but why not turn the very few melee carries into tanky dps? I mean, the role of melee carry is a tough one to balance, whereas tanky dps have a place in the game right now. I don't see this as being particularly terrible, myself.


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Fox P McCloud

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01-23-2013

Quote:
However, characters like Lee Sin, Pantheon, Fizz, Olaf- you can still run the mid game, and if you play well enough you can carry pretty hard. Olaf especially, if you get fed, get some good items, and turn on that ult at the right you can hammer virtually any character in the game into the ground.
These are not melee carries though; they're melee characters with carry potential. There's a vast difference between someone who's a carry and who an can carry; melee-carry is right-click high single-target DPS that isn't hyper-reliant on their skills; just like their ranged counter-parts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ding an Sich View Post
I'm not sure how far you are willing to accept time as a factor with riot. The exact same language for stealth changes was effectively over and over again the same message. And as with stealth you would find points where someone like Xyph would talk about whats behind the curtain and the issues that have surfaced.
There's a sharp difference between the two though; it was talked about and actively acknowledge that stealth was being worked on and would be resolved eventually---it wasn't a "we'll get to it when we get to it"--it was something that was considered a real problem and something worth solving...and there were only two stealth heroes.

There's three melee carries and Riot has never put forth language that indicated it was something they were going to actively work on and work through to finish it out and resolve it---while they might pick at the problem a little bit here and there, it was still a "we'll get to it when we get to it" attitude that was presented to players.

Quote:
While all factors of Lol have importance, most of the most noticeable ones don't necessarily garnish the most in attention and upkeep. So while melee's by themselves, or adc's by themselves garnish a reasonable portion of respect in of themselves, the whole and combined efforts (do champions in any field even work) is a bigger target to focus on.
I don't expect it to receive all the focus; I just want it to receive some, as it seems it's pure after-thought at the moment and something that no particular person, or even a very small group works on; it's something to do when there's nothing else to do (I could be wrong on this, but that's the idea I get). Again, contrast this with active directional focus on stealth despite it impacting only two characters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strayal View Post
So, and this might seem strange or foolish, but why not turn the very few melee carries into tanky dps? I mean, the role of melee carry is a tough one to balance, whereas tanky dps have a place in the game right now. I don't see this as being particularly terrible, myself.
Because then you eliminate that class in its entirety and alienate all those players who like melee ADC (ie: they might leave for a competitor which offers them the experience they desire); for example, imagine if Eve and Twitch's stealth was removed completely during the stealth rework and they weren't given anything resembling stealth to replace it; players would be rightfully angry.


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Ding an Sich

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox P McCloud View Post
Quote
No melee has been talked about, the only reason it definitely isn't as heavily touched on is because A. As you said there a very minor, but some champions in the field that work at most every level (there is no real design goal for all to work in competitive for example as easily as some do, just that they are playable within different grey areas). B. As you also said Melee's have also had constant, albeit small changes or buffs added over time.

If we looked at stealth there were two types, Long lasting versus momentary. And even for the momentaries with very short durations (shaco for example) those were more quickly fixed or conditioned to work more universally with LoL. However the longer ones, or eve's perma one actively made their classification unplayable, to the extent eve had to be broken until further notice (sorta like xin).

So melee's by contrast while receiving much less constant or big flows of information/change, have received a more spread out effect considering they were in essences still viable within most of the grey areas mentioned earlier. The stealth characters were effectively DOA if you wanted to play them (even if in some situations they could do well, the number in which they could was severely dwarfed by the opposite).

Now again this is not to say riot shouldn't look at this, I'm just trying to offer reasonable counter-points that reflect less an I don't care attitude, and more a time+potential influence (we could call this net gain positively for the game and players. But thats long winded) that is deciding where the buck stops.


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YamiBelgarath

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01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox P McCloud View Post
These are not melee carries though; they're melee characters with carry potential. There's a vast difference between someone who's a carry and who an can carry; melee-carry is right-click high single-target DPS that isn't hyper-reliant on their skills; just like their ranged counter-parts..
Well...Riot is very clear that they don't want right click win champions, because there is no depth to that kind of play. I mean, as far as I can tell there are two options with that kind of play: you right click on someone, dive into the fray, and get the kill or don't. If you do, you switch to the next target, if you don't you died. If you want that, there's Master Yi, Tryndamere, and Xin Zhao- if you build them glass cannon, that's basically the play style. You just click a few extra buttons to get into and (if the situation demands and the CD's ready) get out of the fight.


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Vulking

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01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Man, if that's the biggest not-awesome thing in LoL, I'd be super happy :P
In regards of melee ADC, I think Riot is not taking the right approach, I believe that if most Melee ADC had kits were more balanced around how Jax is designed they would be WAY more viable, I know Riot hate Jax balance wise, but I have never seen him as problematic as people think, he is basically one of the few champs that is melee and can carry at the same time because his kit is well balanced to do so.

Heck, even if Sion kit could be balanced more like Jax he could be a successful melee carry and retain his hybrid build paths (but maybe that's because I'm the only one that see the similarities in their kits).


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Fox P McCloud

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01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiBelgarath View Post
Well...Riot is very clear that they don't want right click win champions, because there is no depth to that kind of play. I mean, as far as I can tell there are two options with that kind of play: you right click on someone, dive into the fray, and get the kill or don't. If you do, you switch to the next target, if you don't you died. If you want that, there's Master Yi, Tryndamere, and Xin Zhao- if you build them glass cannon, that's basically the play style. You just click a few extra buttons to get into and (if the situation demands and the CD's ready) get out of the fight.
The counter-point I offer to this is; ranged AD carries are more or less right-click to win, yet they're perfectly balanced, fun to play, involving unique skills and counter-play, yet they're not problematic.

Being melee complicates this matter a bit, but if it can be done (repeatedly mind you) with ranged, then it can be made viable and done with melee.


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YamiBelgarath

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01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox P McCloud View Post
The counter-point I offer to this is; ranged AD carries are more or less right-click to win, yet they're perfectly balanced, fun to play, involving unique skills and counter-play, yet they're not problematic.

Being melee complicates this matter a bit, but if it can be done (repeatedly mind you) with ranged, then it can be made viable and done with melee.
ADC's are about more than auto attacking. It's a lot of positioning and good ability usage too. If Ezreal, Corki, Graves, Vayne, Ashe, Varus, any of these guys just auto attacked, they would be no fun to play either. I think casting is an inherently important part of League. Right click to win I don't think is really a part of the game, nor should it be.


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thepantsparty

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01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulking View Post
In regards of melee ADC, I think Riot is not taking the right approach, I believe that if most Melee ADC had kits were more balanced around how Jax is designed they would be WAY more viable, I know Riot hate Jax balance wise, but I have never seen him as problematic as people think, he is basically one of the few champs that is melee and can carry at the same time because his kit is well balanced to do so.

Heck, even if Sion kit could be balanced more like Jax he could be a successful melee carry and retain his hybrid build paths (but maybe that's because I'm the only one that see the similarities in their kits).
I'm with you. I think champions like Jax, Irelia, etc, who are basically "auto-attack-heavy bruisers" are the way to go with the concept of melee carries.