Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? @Morello @Feralpony @IronStylus @Xypherous

First Riot Post
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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teemo AMA View Post
I don't like the idea of league of legends 2. If you resorted to that you kill the first effectively.
Not necessarily (or immediately)--people that prefer LoL would still play LoL, but all of the future development would be on LoL 2. That's kind of how sequels work. They get better, and you stop caring about the old one because the new one is better than it could ever be, because it's not limited by the fact that it's its predecessor.

LoL 2 would be a fresh start--there are limitations created by the fact that LoL is out of beta. You can't change it gradually because it would create a schizophrenic roster, and you can't change it all at once because it would effectively pull the rug out from under the community and the game itself. Also, future installments would mean the possibility for better engines, and so on.

Quote:
I also don't think that current players would be too upset about updating older champions. If you stay with the percieved theme of the champion and do your best to make him or her fun you have succeeded.
You would be surprised. Did you see how upset players were when they changed Kat and Xin Zhao (making them more dynamic and adding greater depth), or when they changed Twitch (which actually made him a more competitive pick)? Players of competitive video games are hard-wired to oppose change--besides, there are some champions that don't and can't fit up to my standards (Irelia, for example, has no theme to work with and is unreadable from a design standpoint), and not only is it impossible to delete them from the game, but if it were, you'd be stealing from the players. People pay money for champions!

Quote:
I play Teemo, not because he is the best champ (he is), not because he's the only champion that can tank/support/adc/top/mid/jungle/bruiser/shred (he is) I play teemo because I love the design and execution of the character. I would define a successful champion as one I could load into a custom game against all bots and still have fun.
That's the idea! My only nitpick with Teemo is that he has a support kit--but the existence of his on-hit poison encourages players to build and play him for damage, which is a bit of kit inconsistency and what I removed/changed in the nitpick-redesign (in favor of turning him into a cool support instead of a lackluster damage-dealer that became popular due to new items).

But what you say about the bots is spot-on--champions, at their core, should just be fun to play around with! If they're fun at that level, just imagine what happens when you add competition and the fun of active/reactive play to the mix (the brain really enjoy problem-solving in defined spaces--like video games!--so active, reactive play is naturally fun as hell from even a psychological standpoint)!

Quote:
that being said I can't do that with TOO terribly many atm. singed darius teemo so on and so on. Generally they are the ones that have the best themes and stuck to the theme. If you rework ashe to make her more fun to play more people will play her. If you delete annie noone would care.
Exactly! This is what we aim to do with every single champion--on top of making each and every one a competitive pick simply through principle of strongly defined design.

Quote:
TL;DR reworking old champions to make them better, like most of the new champs, is a GREAT THING not one that will make people mad.
Again, you'd be surprised! Some people get awfully attached to things they're used to, regardless of how much better they can be. And you'd lose nothing in the process, if these changes were to manifest in LoL 2! If you wanted the kind of richness of gameplay you're talking about, LoL 2 would be all about that, and I suspect you'd love the sh*t out of it.

This is what I slave over day and night! While I do want League of Legends to break new grounds for eSports and video games as a medium, first and foremost, I want to give players the best, most enriching experiences I can possibly give.

Thank you for your support, it's the people like you that keep me going when the going gets tough!


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Lolkis

Junior Member

01-23-2013

From Itemsguy's tumblr:

"
Posted at 9:15 PM Permalink ∞ Tags: I know we've explained to you why exactly you can't use 'well it's just a matter of opinion/priority' to dismiss every point we make while excusing the flaws in your design philosophy and the fact that mine is inarguably better--it's ground in fact otherwise I wouldn't present it and this may have discouraged you but c'mon baby don't be like that
"

=/

Edit: My face is clearly directed at Itemsguy, but I wanted to make that clear.


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HungryThunder

Junior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by lolkis View Post
from itemsguy's tumblr:

"
i know we've explained to you why exactly you can't use 'well it's just a matter of opinion/priority' to dismiss every point we make while excusing the flaws in your design philosophy and the fact that mine is inarguably better--it's ground in fact otherwise i wouldn't present it and this may have discouraged you but c'mon baby don't be like that
"

=/

edit: My face is clearly directed at itemsguy, but i wanted to make that clear.
baspingo


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Horasu

Member

01-23-2013

Hello Itemsguy,

http://theitemsguy.tumblr.com/

This is your tumblr blog. I understand that you have recently sent in an application to League of Legends as a response to the growing momentum of this thread. While not exactly pertaining to the topics herein, what I'm about to say does relate to this thread as a whole.

In short, you are not fit to weigh in on champion design.

I would like to introduce to everyone here what your attitude is towards the whole situation. You are very stubborn in that your opinions (yes, opinions) are grounded facts. So much that anyone who disagrees with you is a "human shaped sack of **** with internet access." Take note, for every link, please read the tags for further information on Itemsguy's character.

Proof:
http://theitemsguy.tumblr.com/post/40963761142
http://theitemsguy.tumblr.com/post/41327708596

You are so set in your opinions that you have created an idealistic "me vs. them" world where your side are the crusaders of righteousness and everyone else are plebes who don't know any better since they're "full of ****." This delusion is so ingrained into your mind that when IronStylus weighed in on the topic, you proclaimed that he is a "useful ally in changing League of Legends." You don't enter a company expecting some employees to take your side while you fight the rest of the employees in the company. You just don't.

Proof: http://theitemsguy.tumblr.com/post/40884996095

Finally, you are so insistent on being this "crusader of righteousness that changes League of Legends" that when Morello stopped responding you even belittled his opinion derogatorily by saying he was avoiding your "facts" (opinions). Keep in mind this man has had years and years of champion design while you are merely a student in champion design with an idea. A very, very ingrained idea.

Proof: Deleted post.

In short, you belittle and humiliate people publicly on places that they can have no voice just because they have opinions different from your own opinions. You are so set on anti-teamwork behavior that anyone who agrees is an "ally in your crusade to change League" and anyone who isn't is a "sack of ****."

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but being a Riot employee requires a sense of teamwork. It's about listening to the other side, considering their opinions adequately, and responding appropriately and, if they make a good point, adjust your opinions to match the new information on your hands.

You are quite the opposite. Riot doesn't need such a person on their team. I would go so far as to say your attitude towards others and yourself would poison the game if you were to touch it. Your delusion that you can objectively "change league to become a better game" is only further promoted by people that follow you WHO DON'T EVEN PLAY LEAGUE*. League of Legends does NOT need someone who scoffs at the work of hundreds of employees that put in thousands of man hours to make League into what it is today.

I hope the day never comes that you get hired by Riot. If you touch that game, you will ruin it. I also hope that, if a Riot employee reads this, that they consider my post when reviewing Itemsguy's application.

If you want to recreate a game, don't choose League of Legends. Make your own game.

*Final proof: http://theitemsguy.tumblr.com/post/41246632223

EDIT: I figured the posts would go... Missing. Luckily I have saved images which I have attached herein. It goes from top to down in order:

Alt links to proof:
http://imageshack.us/a/img542/9484/70678595.png
http://imageshack.us/a/img831/2516/26371797.png
http://imageshack.us/a/img338/6332/88773292.png
http://imageshack.us/a/img221/894/51243780.png


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SgtChase

Junior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horasu View Post
Hello Itemsguy,

http://theitemsguy.tumblr.com/

This is your tumblr blog. I understand that you have recently sent in an application to League of Legends as a response to the growing momentum of this thread. While not exactly pertaining to the topics herein, what I'm about to say does relate to this thread as a whole.

In short, you are not fit to weigh in on champion design.

I would like to introduce to everyone here what your attitude is towards the whole situation. You are very stubborn in that your opinions (yes, opinions) are grounded facts. So much that anyone who disagrees with you is a "human shaped sack of **** with internet access." Take note, for every link, please read the tags for further information on Itemsguy's character.

Proof:
http://theitemsguy.tumblr.com/post/40963761142
http://theitemsguy.tumblr.com/post/41327708596

You are so set in your opinions that you have created an idealistic "me vs. them" world where your side are the crusaders of righteousness and everyone else are plebes who don't know any better since they're "full of ****." This delusion is so ingrained into your mind that when IronStylus weighed in on the topic, you proclaimed that he is a "useful ally in changing League of Legends." You don't enter a company expecting some employees to take your side while you fight the rest of the employees in the company. You just don't.

Proof: http://theitemsguy.tumblr.com/post/40884996095

Finally, you are so insistent on being this "crusader of righteousness that changes League of Legends" that when Morello stopped responding you even belittled his opinion derogatorily by saying he was avoiding your "facts" (opinions). Keep in mind this man has had years and years of champion design while you are merely a student in champion design with an idea. A very, very ingrained idea.

Proof: Deleted post.

In short, you belittle and humiliate people publicly on places that they can have no voice just because they have opinions different from your own opinions. You are so set on anti-teamwork behavior that anyone who agrees is an "ally in your crusade to change League" and anyone who isn't is a "sack of ****."

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but being a Riot employee requires a sense of teamwork. It's about listening to the other side, considering their opinions adequately, and responding appropriately and, if they make a good point, adjust your opinions to match the new information on your hands.

You are quite the opposite. Riot doesn't need such a person on their team. I would go so far as to say your attitude towards others and yourself would poison the game if you were to touch it. Your delusion that you can objectively "change league to become a better game" is only further promoted by people that follow you WHO DON'T EVEN PLAY LEAGUE*. League of Legends does NOT need someone who scoffs at the work of hundreds of employees that put in thousands of man hours to make League into what it is today.

I hope the day never comes that you get hired by Riot. If you touch that game, you will ruin it. I also hope that, if a Riot employee reads this, that they consider my post when reviewing Itemsguy's application.

If you want to recreate a game, don't choose League of Legends. Make your own game.

*Final proof: http://theitemsguy.tumblr.com/post/41246632223
Uh, what?
EDIT: None of these links lead anywhere...


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Arechon Gend

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Not necessarily (or immediately)--people that prefer LoL would still play LoL, but all of the future development would be on LoL 2. That's kind of how sequels work. They get better, and you stop caring about the old one because the new one is better than it could ever be, because it's not limited by the fact that it's its predecessor.

LoL 2 would be a fresh start--there are limitations created by the fact that LoL is out of beta. You can't change it gradually because it would create a schizophrenic roster, and you can't change it all at once because it would effectively pull the rug out from under the community and the game itself. Also, future installments would mean the possibility for better engines, and so on.
Except the people that spent hundreds of dollars on the first game, they are going to fill ripped off (even if they can still play original LoL).

Also anyone who's favorite champion doesn't make the cut for the second game (No game company would try and recreate 110 champions at once), in my experience, people dislike losing content more than they like gaining new content, case in point, the Twisted Treeline fiasco, more people were upset at losing the old Twisted Treeline than they were gaining the new one, dispite the fact that the new one if a far better map.

Champions can be redesigned, and already have been for the first game.

Graphically the game is fine, and personally, I'd hope they really didn't mess with it too much (a lot of modern games actually hurt my eyes because they are so complex graphically).

I don't really see the point in a sequel here. Only thing missing is story progression, which hasn't even been touched yet within the original. Yeah, back to maps again >.>


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Horasu

Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SgtChase View Post
Uh, what?
EDIT: None of these links lead anywhere...
Thank you. I've updated the post. I figured the posts would disappear.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-23-2013

(Posted here in case you decide to ignore the asks I sent you on Tumblr or they get lost in the pipes):

Oi, Horasu, if you have issues with me, you can take them up personally. Trying to undermine me just because I made some posts *directed at people I've argued with in threads, not at the game devs themselves* (the whole "it's just an opinion" thing was in recent frustration of the flexibility vs. definition argument, and it was a personal expression of frustration regarding my points being cast aside without second thought for what are ultimately not very good reasons) certainly isn't appreciated. I can step back and consider. It's not my goal to be what you're playing me up to be--an idealistic ******* that only wants what's best for himself and doesn't take every point into consideration, no matter how briefly--I want to be the best game designer I can be and design the best games I can. Video games are my passion, and I want them to be taken seriously by the world at large. Making a good game leagues (heh) better than it is currently right now would be a very strong step towards that. Now, if you don't personally care for what I want to do, that's fine--there are people that don't and I understand. However, personally attacking me on a public forum isn't the best way to express this, and I'd appreciate it if you took that post down. If you have issues with me, take them up with me so I may address them, but trying to make me look like a lunatic and undermine the work and research I've devoted to out of an undying love for all video games are and all they can be is, again, not appreciated. It's your decision, of course--I really don't expect you to take it down, you seem pretty convinced that I'm one of the worst things that could happen to LoL--so hopefully the points I've made in the thread, and the work ethic I've exemplified can make up for whatever perceived overzealousness I may have. Also, regarding the whole "the only people that support this are people that don't play the game" comment is entirely unfounded--if you read through the thread, you'd understand that. I wouldn't have done all the work I have done if I didn't think it was good game design, or if there were players that saw it, approved, and encouraged me (see a number of asks on my redesign blog). Either way, I hope you change your stance (or at least your approach), but I'm not going to count on it.


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LightningAcorns

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arechon Gend View Post
Except the people that spent hundreds of dollars on the first game, they are going to fill ripped off (even if they can still play original LoL).

Also anyone who's favorite champion doesn't make the cut for the second game (No game company would try and recreate 110 champions at once), in my experience, people dislike losing content more than they like gaining new content, case in point, the Twisted Treeline fiasco, more people were upset at losing the old Twisted Treeline than they were gaining the new one, dispite the fact that the new one if a far better map.

Champions can be redesigned, and already have been for the first game.

Graphically the game is fine, and personally, I'd hope they really didn't mess with it too much (a lot of modern games actually hurt my eyes because they are so complex graphically).

I don't really see the point in a sequel here. Only thing missing is story progression, which hasn't even been touched yet within the original. Yeah, back to maps again >.>
Losing characters in sequential installments happens more often than not in series such as Super Smash Bros. or Marvel vs. Capcom, mostly due to time restraints or simply no need for the cut characters. Champions have been redesigned to make them better fit into the current state of the game. Annie's model has caught up with Thresh's, and Twitch and Evelynn's kits have caught up to make them viable. Graphcially, the game is still improving, and as time passes, most champs will be playing catch up until everyone gets to the same stage. As for story progression, a lot of things would have to change, such as Mundo's apperance shifting from Infraggable Kronk with a cleaver to a mad scientist. Maybe make it an alternate universe, or have particular reasons why certain Champs quit the League (permanent death being a cheap but viable excuse).


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Lolkis

Junior Member

01-23-2013

I love that Itemsguy is straight up lying now.