Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? @Morello @Feralpony @IronStylus @Xypherous

First Riot Post
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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arechon Gend View Post
There is a problem with champions, at least the way I see it, just not quite with how they work mechanically, I would like to know more about them, who they are, why they fight, some of the major events in their histories, and how they react in other scenarios than just fighting on Summoner's Rift. Riot doesn't seem to have much faith in text based lore, and that is understandable, its not the most accessible. I think the only way to put that out there in a way that players will care about would be a in a way that actually appears in game, and that is maps. Like I've said before, they don't have to be competitive.
And I completely agree with you - there should be more lore tied to League, but adding that to league right now won't fix the champions as it's mainly why or how they play.

Don't get me wrong, I would have approved of more/better lore if there is room for it - heck, I wouldn't even bother if it doesn't go at the cost of the quality of champions (in terms of Riot hiring a an entire new lore department)

That said, this thread is really all about champion designs in context of theming in playstyle/kit.


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YamiBelgarath

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Senior Member

01-23-2013

Balancing a map is INCREDIBLY difficult. Remember old Twisted Treeline, and the series of broken characters that DOMINATED the map? We had Mundo, Singed, Tryndamere, Lee Sin- these characters who were absolutely godly, and in order to create an interesting game the SAME EXACT BANS had to occur every time. There was no diversity- you could literally make a list of the 12 best Twisted Treeline characters in the game, ban the top 6, and then the teams would split the other 6. It was ridiculous. Why, you ask? Because the competitive scene is balanced for Summoner's Rift. We didn't exactly see Mundo, Singed, Tryndamere, Lee Sin, Riven, etc pick or banned in every SR game. Characters become pick or ban in SR as Riot strives for balance, but then they fade back into normalcy to make room for the next flavor of the month. Twisted Treeline never experienced that. My point is that Twisted Treeline is finely at least marginally balanced, same with SR. They had to redo the map and change a bunch of items to do it, but the thing works. Dominion is it's own can of beans, since there is no ranked Dominion and let's face it, Dominate Dominion as a tournament fetches virtually no viewers compared to even the smaller SR tournies, and without a ranking system to indicate your progress like TT has, Dominion is pretty insignificant in terms of balance.

Adding a new map would require either an enormous set of rebalancing- RIGHT AFTER SEASON 3 changes showed up. Let's face it- that isn't going to happen. Additionally, Riot would rather continue to build on SR, to make their competitive season better. Remember how many million viewers the Season 2 World Championships had? Yeah, that's the money maker right there. Not some new map just a few months after Twisted Treeline got completely revamped.

The only way I see a new map appearing anytime in the next year or two is if LoL 2 (or some other Riot-made game) showed up, and got it's own map. But as ItemsGuy pointed out, he wants his guys on SR, just in their own separate system from the current one because you can't just mix and match between his champions and Riot's. So even if he gets his internship and Riot loves everything he does and is like here, we're throwing money at you, go head the design for LoL 2, you still wouldn't get a new map, just a replica of the pre-existent one.

So, tl;dr No new maps incoming because it wouldn't make any sense for there to be maps incoming


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arechon Gend View Post
There is a problem with champions, at least the way I see it, just not quite with how they work mechanically, I would like to know more about them, who they are, why they fight, some of the major events in their histories, and how they react in other scenarios than just fighting on Summoner's Rift. Riot doesn't seem to have much faith in text based lore, and that is understandable, its not the most accessible. I think the only way to put that out there in a way that players will care about would be a in a way that actually appears in game, and that is maps. Like I've said before, they don't have to be competitive.
Nope, lore's still good--they just have to get a team devoted to it. It's the world around a game that can take the experience to unforeseen heights--Pokemon is probably the perfect example of this! Little things like Tales of Valoran are what keep me excited about League of Legends--how much better would this be if we got things like a revamped Journal of Justice out, full of goodies like (narrative!) hints regarding future champions and a way to further flesh out champions and maintain LoL's presence in your life even when you're not playing!

Non game-based stuff like this is what can really help players really dive into the universe League of Legends has to offer--"just add more maps!" isn't going to do that and if you don't drop the subject, we're going to have to drop you.

This is the end of the line unless you decide to start keeping things on-topic and constructive.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiBelgarath View Post
Balancing a map is INCREDIBLY difficult. Remember old Twisted Treeline, and the series of broken characters that DOMINATED the map? We had Mundo, Singed, Tryndamere, Lee Sin- these characters who were absolutely godly, and in order to create an interesting game the SAME EXACT BANS had to occur every time. There was no diversity- you could literally make a list of the 12 best Twisted Treeline characters in the game, ban the top 6, and then the teams would split the other 6. It was ridiculous. Why, you ask? Because the competitive scene is balanced for Summoner's Rift. We didn't exactly see Mundo, Singed, Tryndamere, Lee Sin, Riven, etc pick or banned in every SR game. Characters become pick or ban in SR as Riot strives for balance, but then they fade back into normalcy to make room for the next flavor of the month. Twisted Treeline never experienced that. My point is that Twisted Treeline is finely at least marginally balanced, same with SR. They had to redo the map and change a bunch of items to do it, but the thing works. Dominion is it's own can of beans, since there is no ranked Dominion and let's face it, Dominate Dominion as a tournament fetches virtually no viewers compared to even the smaller SR tournies, and without a ranking system to indicate your progress like TT has, Dominion is pretty insignificant in terms of balance.

Adding a new map would require either an enormous set of rebalancing- RIGHT AFTER SEASON 3 changes showed up. Let's face it- that isn't going to happen. Additionally, Riot would rather continue to build on SR, to make their competitive season better. Remember how many million viewers the Season 2 World Championships had? Yeah, that's the money maker right there. Not some new map just a few months after Twisted Treeline got completely revamped.

The only way I see a new map appearing anytime in the next year or two is if LoL 2 (or some other Riot-made game) showed up, and got it's own map. But as ItemsGuy pointed out, he wants his guys on SR, just in their own separate system from the current one because you can't just mix and match between his champions and Riot's. So even if he gets his internship and Riot loves everything he does and is like here, we're throwing money at you, go head the design for LoL 2, you still wouldn't get a new map, just a replica of the pre-existent one.

So, tl;dr No new maps incoming because it wouldn't make any sense for there to be maps incoming
Yami, you are quickly becoming one of my favorite summoners. (Get on League! Accepted your request.)


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-23-2013

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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Yami, you are quickly becoming one of my favorite summoners.
^

@YamiBelgarath, you on League any time soon ? Just for a minute ?


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phatcat09

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Found Vs designed use.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by phatcat09 View Post
Found Vs designed use.
Control in the hands of the player vs. control in the hands of the designers.

Since the designer is the one in control of defining and developing the game, I tend to prefer the latter.

Compare "here, you found some tools, go do a thing with them???" vs. "here's the basic knowledge you need to engineer a functioning car." They can still be creative with that car design and would generally get more done because they have sight on the possibilities of what could be done with that foundation; one of the things I wanted to shout very loudly at CertainlyT in that jungler thread was "don't be afraid to design your game!" Riot's whole philosophy regarding being very connected with their playerbase is excellent, if the approach taken through that is "listen to feedback from players and then weigh it against your own knowledge of the inner-workings and framework of your game" (like how people on GD have been QQing about Darius since his release, yet he hasn't been touched since)--not "hand design over to the playerbase and have them engineer modification to your airplane while you're trying to build it mid-flight (as LoL is still a young and developing game)."

Players can bring up valid issues or suggest valid improvements for your game (and just that is what has been happening in this thread, and it's Riot's player-involved model that grants it such lofty potential), but you shouldn't hand the reigns over to them unless they've provided an unbeatable argument. I'm pretty sure that's how Riot operates even today (although they do occasionally slip into "the players are saying it, so it must be right" territory, but this is extremely rare--but devastating when they do, like Special Snowflake Syndrome causing the non-seasonal Twisted Treeline skins to be Limited, cutting Riot's profits for well-made skins as well as denying future players access to said skins).


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phatcat09

Senior Member

01-23-2013

What's the difference between designing a character to fit a specific role and designing a character with an inferred role


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by phatcat09 View Post
What's the difference between designing a character to fit a specific role and designing a character with an inferred role
Definition and vision. "What's the difference between finding the book you wanted to read and browsing aimlessly through the library?"

You typically want to have some level of control over your designs.


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Arechon Gend

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Nope, lore's still good--they just have to get a team devoted to it. It's the world around a game that can take the experience to unforeseen heights--Pokemon is probably the perfect example of this! Little things like Tales of Valoran are what keep me excited about League of Legends--how much better would this be if we got things like a revamped Journal of Justice out, full of goodies like (narrative!) hints regarding future champions and a way to further flesh out champions and maintain LoL's presence in your life even when you're not playing!

Non game-based stuff like this is what can really help players really dive into the universe League of Legends has to offer--"just add more maps!" isn't going to do that and if you don't drop the subject, we're going to have to drop you.

This is the end of the line unless you decide to start keeping things on-topic and constructive.
Woah, chill dude, its all interconnected, its a question of priority, and as I've said, to me at least, mechanically, the champions are fine, so the way I see it, something else, maps specifically would be a better use of Riot's time. And for longevity sake, maps are needed in this game, probably in a more casual sense (due to concerns of balance and such with competitive maps).