Welcome to the Forum Archive!

Years of conversation fill a ton of digital pages, and we've kept all of it accessible to browse or copy over. Whether you're looking for reveal articles for older champions, or the first time that Rammus rolled into an "OK" thread, or anything in between, you can find it here. When you're finished, check out the boards to join in the latest League of Legends discussions.

GO TO BOARDS


Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? @Morello @Feralpony @IronStylus @Xypherous

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Wuloric:
I think we can agree on one thing that releasing new champions at a slower rate can help with this

A lot of unpolished champions (note that not bad, but unpolished) was released in 2012. As mentioned and admitted by the Reds Zyra and Syndra, etc.

At least the developers are seeing this and have made the thread sticky, add to that the recent visual updates on champions like LeBlanc and Master Yi~~ a sign that 2013 is going to be a year of polishing League as a whole.


Hmm, I wouldn't argue that it had anything to do with the rate at which content is being released, but rather the underlying philosophies and the standards this content is being held to.

With the whole LoL 2 schtick, I'm pushing higher standards while also introducing a new philosophy. I'd even go as far as to say that they would actually help to facilitate the design process--see the Jesse Schell quote in the OP.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

phatcat09

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
ItemsGuy:
Hmm, I wouldn't argue that it had anything to do with the rate at which content is being released, but rather the underlying philosophies and the standards this content is being held to.


It has everything to do with the rate a which it's released. Because they've given themselves artificial limitations. Since they have a full release schedule to stick they're unable to break from a process that brings some form of consistent character creation that enables them to stay on schedule.

Their underlying philosophies are being controlled by this, philosophies can be changed a release schedule won't.

Good luck convincing someone their philosophies are wrong when their reasoning for it from their perspective is sound.

If I remember correctly the whole reason they have such a overloaded release schedule is because it's the only form of dynamic content in their eyes -- Essential to capturing and keeping an audience entertained. It's the only way to "Change the game" without radically shaking it's foundations otherwise we'd see more maps and game types.

Riot has literally given themselves more limitations than the playerbase would allow for, and it's starting to show.

It's like watching a Burger joint intentionally not finding a different way to make their burgers faster because to them if a burger is made faster it will result in negative reaction from their customers. When in reality if they'd restructure their patented burger making process they'd realize they can still achieve customer satisfaction without sacrificing on their principles even if at the time that seems illegitimate or too risky...Why? because their customers are willing to accommodate if the Burger joint can deliver.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

MX5

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Since they have a full release schedule


Things have slowed a lot over the years and that is their plan. It use to be a champion ever two weeks like clockwork. Every other Tuesday a patch would come out. But the champion pool was getting to big and they felt that the quality was lacking. So they've slowed the pace. Release dates are very vague now and are not set in stone. They want to make sure things work well in PBE before they release something.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

phatcat09

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
MX5:
Things have slowed a lot over the years and that is their plan. It use to be a champion ever two weeks like clockwork. Every other Tuesday a patch would come out. But the champion pool was getting to big and they felt that the quality was lacking. So they've slowed the pace. Release dates are very vague now and are not set in stone. They want to make sure things work well in PBE before they release something.


Slowing the rate at which they're released doesn't mean that their release schedule isn't full.

Full is relative - Full is determined as a ratio between Customer Satisfaction and Workload.

If you're popping out new heroes to comply with what I see as an inherently problematic mindset -- thinking that the only form of dynamic content (I'm ignoring skins), is to release new heroes and still failing to make people feel as if though what is being released is like a whole new game or rather a new iteration akin to some form of a New Dungeon in an MMO -- then no extra amount of time will make a hero more appealing to the public.

Don't limit yourselves to a schedule limit yourselves to your game.

When an MMO is designed they don't say at the start of the year [Alright let's get this much new content out] they consider where they are in their game - then decide where they're [Iable[/I] to go.

Unfortunately the design Process for LoL specifically excludes this ability to remain consistent to a story line or some form of majesty that makes people go "AWESOME".


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

MX5

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Unfortunately the design Process for LoL specifically excludes this ability to remain consistent to a story line or some form of majesty that makes people go "AWESOME".


Their goal is to make a great E-sport. Storyline and majesty have definitely taken a back seat.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Arechon Gend

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
YamiBelgarath:
The trick with lore is that Riot is currently years behind- the original Runeterra which supported the first 50 odd champions is not really functional right now, since nothing has been published to explain all these odd additions. It's one of the reasons Riot is starting to hide behind tropes instead of actually giving champions a reason to exist (with obvious exceptions like Zed). I mean...they are literally just pulling things out of the jungle and inventing civilizations to explain characters, instead of building on the reasonably interesting and well formed societies that already existed.

I think the Shadow Isles is a good example of the bizarre method Riot is using to generate story. They don't have to explain why things are there, just come up with ghost stories. Many of them even have interesting tales- Thresh the cager, Elise the spider priestess, Yorick the ghost keeper....but they don't build the story. You can't DO anything with them...they just exist. Riot needs to build- use skins, sales, new lores, updated old judgments- whatever they want, there are lots of options. Make societies, explain how characters interact, who cares about whom. They can make 50 more characters if they want to, but if they don't interact the characters, it's just going to feel more like Super Smash Bros, and less like a world being decided with every match.

That's another thing I've noticed- the matches are completely ignored. There are what, like a million odd matches that occur every day, each of which means something to someone in Runeterra, and none of it is addressed. We had the brilliance of the Noxus/Ionia match...and then it went stone cold silent. Nothing- not even a peep. We never hear what we're doing means. That really hurts the role play aspect- I think. There should be more show matches, at least- let people sign up as a character to role play in tournaments and stuff. Riot doesn't have to sponsor this stuff- but making a precedent by creating one wouldn't hurt.

Edit: Just to be clear, I'm referring to champions along the lines of Fizz, Kha'zix, Rengar, Zyra. Also: yes, Kha and Rengar have a connection...but that doesn't stop them being relevant to the rest of the world. I mean, what does Rengar do when he's not at the Institute? What, really, do any of the assorted beasts and abominations and such do? Does Rengar live off in some forested area far away and then just get summoned? Is he trying to kill Kha? What is he doing about it? How are Graves and TF doing, anyways? We know Graves hates TF, and then that is suddenly the end of it. What about Shy? Is she trying to get the dragons to accept her again? Hasn't it occurred yet to Noxus that since the dragons hate Shyvana so much for being different, maybe they can join forces? And what are Swain and Darius up to, anyways? It seems like Riot has been raising questions and creating possibilities for a really long time...but we never see it go anywhere.



I read this post and it just keeps echoing in my head what Riot needs to do. They NEED to take a look at further developing the lore, way too much potential in the roster to let that go to waste.

Also, the way they do it needs to be accessible.

This is how I suggest they do it. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2972404

Not saying there aren't other ways of doing it, just that that is the way I think it would be over all most beneficial to the game.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

phatcat09

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
MX5:
Their goal is to make a great E-sport. Storyline and majesty have definitely taken a back seat.


Which is the inherent issue.

A sport doesn't allow for what it would view as "radical" changes to design because you have to adhere to hard framework, conversely, a game does. There's built in reasoning to make decisions that could alter how something is played or bring about a new form. While in League of Legends they've set themselves up to only be able to follow one set of motives Your "dream team" type play where you have a Meta to appeal to in order to create mobile consistency that players can pick up on as a sport (oh this is your forward, this is your point guard and you have to have these or else).

I've gave up the fight against this mentality a while ago, but this thread reminds me.

I hate League of Legends design philosophy, and more importantly the reasoning behind it.

However, it's not my game, and they quite clearly have made up their mind that the most lucrative and easiest way to broadly appeal is to make LoL just that.

Just a sport.

Now if I could just port League of Legends Characters into DOTA design....


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
phatcat09:
Which is the inherent issue.

A sport doesn't allow for what it would view as "radical" changes to design because you have to adhere to hard framework, conversely, a game does. There's built in reasoning to make decisions that could alter how something is played or bring about a new form. While in League of Legends they've set themselves up to only be able to follow one set of motives Your "dream team" type play where you have a Meta to appeal to in order to create mobile consistency that players can pick up on as a sport (oh this is your forward, this is your point guard and you have to have these or else).

I've gave up the fight against this mentality a while ago, but this thread reminds me.

I hate League of Legends design philosophy, and more importantly the reasoning behind it.

However, it's not my game, and they quite clearly have made up their mind that the most lucrative and easiest way to broadly appeal is to make LoL just that.

Just a sport.

Now if I could just port League of Legends Characters into DOTA design *while making the champions as readable as possible, living up to their theme as much as they can while providing tons of counterplay*


Yes. That would be awesome. I added that bold part there myself, because it's extremely important.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

rathy Aro

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
phatcat09:
Which is the inherent issue.

A sport doesn't allow for what it would view as "radical" changes to design because you have to adhere to hard framework, conversely, a game does. There's built in reasoning to make decisions that could alter how something is played or bring about a new form. While in League of Legends they've set themselves up to only be able to follow one set of motives Your "dream team" type play where you have a Meta to appeal to in order to create mobile consistency that players can pick up on as a sport (oh this is your forward, this is your point guard and you have to have these or else).

I've gave up the fight against this mentality a while ago, but this thread reminds me.

I hate League of Legends design philosophy, and more importantly the reasoning behind it.

However, it's not my game, and they quite clearly have made up their mind that the most lucrative and easiest way to broadly appeal is to make LoL just that.

Just a sport.

Now if I could just port League of Legends Characters into DOTA design....

/begin basketball rant
But even basketball's meta has changed. How many "true" point guards are their really anymore? Its really just scorers who have moderate passing ability that dominate that role. Also we see the decline of emphasis on the big man in basketball with many teams preferring to play small ball and doing quite well with it (miami is good example). Although there is some idea of what each role should do, its far more beneficial to be flexible. Sometimes you don't have your point guard defend their point guard, because you want your best defense on their best offence. Sometime you have the small foward bring the ball up the court because he is also an excellent passer. Sometimes you have guards looking for offensive rebounds because they have a knack for reading where the ball will go.
/end basketball rant

Similarly with league we actually see a lot of different strategies displayed in various tournaments. Recently AD mid and lane switching (putting "bot lane" mid or top) have been popular, but a lot of other strategies are also viable and occasionally will pop up in tournaments. Its really the choice of players to adhere to very strict roles and it makes sense that they would since you are thrown into queue with 4 random people and need to make an effective team comp on the fly.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
MX5:
Their goal is to make a great E-sport. Storyline and majesty have definitely taken a back seat.


The inherent problem here, however, is when an eSport is treated differently from a game. League of Legends is, before anything, a video game--and thus, it's only as good as the experiences it enables for players. The fact that these experiences are competitive and can be carefully ruled, observed, and mediated makes it, after that, an eSport.

What you are saying now is that any aspect of being a video game can take a back-seat just because the game is an eSport, which is false--in fact, it's the fleshing out and context of the game itself that could potentially make League the best goddamn eSport out there--if only because it's a sign that the developers aren't as narrow-minded as some others (meaning, first and foremost, that their game can evolve and grow in a positive way).

I also think that you're misunderstanding my goal here with these redesigns. My goal isn't to incorporate lore into play, it's to create champions that are readable, concise, and coherent--champions you can look at and immediately understand, meaning the game itself is easier to pick up *and more importantly, more exciting to watch from a spectator standpoint*. I don't just want LoL to be the best eSport out there due to creating a game with over 100 characters where you can pick any one over the others and not so much as nick your competitive edge, I want it to be possibly the first Spectator eSport as well.

I want LoL to be a game you can just watch, even if you've never touched the game--or don't really play video games--and still enjoy yourself, and be interested. I want LoL to be something that can be broadcast on television, something that could easily become a national and world-wide phenomenon. Making the game more readable and diverse through using theming as a way to tie everything together isn't just to make it easier for new players to get into the game and *stick* there, it will help it becomes something more than it is now.

It wouldn't be just a huge step for League of Legends and Riot, but for video games as a whole. As a game designer, I have made it my duty to make that happen--even if I have to make my own MOBA to do it (which would be regrettable--a lot more time and effort required on my part, and seeing all the potential LoL currently has just go to waste would be painful for me).

"But ItemsGuy! You're talking like you and your game design are the only way LoL will ever reach its potential!"

If I didn't believe that it was indeed the case, I wouldn't be fighting for this with every fiber of my being. And indeed I am, so of course, I do!