Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? @Morello @Feralpony @IronStylus @Xypherous

First Riot Post
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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by sniperfodderz View Post
I really like a lot of these redesigns. I can see why one of the disclaimers is that it can't be implemented in league as we know it, though it'd be cool to see them implemented somewhere.
Depends on the Redesign honestly, something like Malphite Redesign would most certainly fit in League as it currently is, living up to his theme better, while providing more counterplay than 'Initiate before this guy does'


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Glad this thread got some traction =D

And look! A sticky!
Ironstylus, I more than 'just like' you. Tell nobody.


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Yomeiro

Senior Member

01-23-2013

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Originally Posted by Whisla View Post
As a very long time Moba player i gotta say leagues doesnt have the "Depth" alot of other ones do, not just complexity but more of a lack of options (example: why cant blitz pull allies out of trouble? opens up a huge amount of depth to her playstyle) combos with champs would add a whole layer this game really needs. difficulty doesnt have to mean depth but the option to do more with what were given would be really nice. Syndra throwing her tank into an enemy team? ya thatd be awesome way to initiate.
If those kinds of "depths" would be added to the game, then you would need to add some kind of negative aspect to those "depths"...
You want to pull that ally with Blitz? Well you can, but you'll damage them slightly in the process.
You wanna throw that Tank with Syndra? He'll take some damage as well in the process (just as examples).
Then you would need to consider if you can pull that ally back to safety or if it would kill him~


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yomeiro View Post
If those kinds of "depths" would be added to the game, then you would need to add some kind of negative aspect to those "depths"...
You want to pull that ally with Blitz? Well you can, but you'll damage them slightly in the process.
You wanna throw that Tank with Syndra? He'll take some damage as well in the process (just as examples).
Then you would need to consider if you can pull that ally back to safety or if it would kill him~
Damaging your allies isn't typically the best thing to be able to do.

For Blitz, the drawback would be that getting the right Crook Hooks would be harder, you'd have more options at the cost of a.higher skill floor.

Something like Syndra's deal would be best as an ultimate level ability, see "Babel" on my original champ design blog (lolchampdesigns.blogspot.com).


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-23-2013

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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Damaging your allies isn't typically the best thing to be able to do.

For Blitz, the drawback would be that getting the right Crook Hooks would be harder, you'd have more options at the cost of a.higher skill floor.

Something like Syndra's deal would be best as an ultimate level ability, see "Babel" on my original champ design blog (lolchampdesigns.blogspot.com).
ItemsGuy, a lot of people are asking how the game would look if all of your Redesigns would go live - a lot of people think it would barely pass as a MOBA (yes, I find this a weird idea aswell) - could you give a small summary of how it would look in terms of champion viability, esports, team composition and counterplay ?

The dude I remember, used Riven Redesign as an example, where he doesn't know or get how Redesign Riven would work here whereas he would be sold by the design in a game like Dynasty Warriors.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
ItemsGuy, a lot of people are asking how the game would look if all of your Redesigns would go live - a lot of people think it would barely pass as a MOBA (yes, I find this a weird idea aswell) - could you give a small summary of how it would look in terms of champion viability, esports, team composition and counterplay ?

The dude I remember, used Riven Redesign as an example, where he doesn't know or get how Redesign Riven would work here whereas he would be sold by the design in a game like Dynasty Warriors.
I'm on a phone, so my answers for now will be short.

First and foremost, I've given every champion the tools they need to fulfill their roles, but I've also designed defined strengths and weaknesses that not only define them as champions, but are clear as day thanks to thematic unity and create individual champions that play like no other.

In the redesign, Riven forgoes her damage-absorbing shield and further rewards good timing in turn--granting her more damage (and situationally more survivability), with the timing of her dash. She'd still work quite similarly to how she does now--all I've done was define.

Every champion excels at something that's relevant to the game. I haven't designed any champions that only excel at, say, making minions invisible or something.

If you have any questions in particular, I will answer them!

(And regarding Riven, the fact that she captures that Dynasty Warriors feel while still being relevant to LoL is just evidence to how rich and juicy LoL can be as a game! It's what's beautiful about LoL and why I love designing for it--I've designed over 100 kits, and loved every moment of it!)


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiBelgarath View Post
Well, I think theoretically that a better designed game is defined by a game that more people enjoy playing (or, if the design is being upgraded, perhaps the game that people now enjoy playing more), since the point of a game is to be enjoyed. So the question would be: would people like these changes?

I think that divides into multiple parts: the first question is, mechanically are these characters at least as good as the characters they are updating from. And the answer to that is: you are trying to compare apples and oranges. It says very specifically on his (or her) blog that:

"None of the changes in these (theoretical) redesigns are intended for LoL as it currently stands, and are purely examples of what champions could've been if their kits had stayed true to their theming 100%, creating playstyles that better reflect the nature of the champions they belong to. If anything, they would be more fit for a sequel game--a LoL 2 of sorts--allowing fans of the old champions to stick with kits they're familiar with, while giving Riot the opportunity to start anew and create stronger designs with the experience they've accumulated over the years."

As such I derive the idea that these changes aren't actually intended to be balanced with the current system, which is the system we are all accustomed to. Players who've been playing these champions, some for several years, would have to get used to these changes- and many probably wouldn't feel comfortable with that change. Therefore, I'm not sure the champions are entirely comparable. I think a better question is: are the themes well represented, and if a system consisting of these modified champions were to be created, would that system then be reasonably balanced. Given that I had never seen these champions before today, and don't have much experience analyzing balance, I am certainly not in a position to make a decision on that front. I would trust Morello or IronStylus, though.

A second part would be: are these actually fun? Disregarding the changes, and looking solely at these champions, would people enjoy playing them? I would guess the answer to that question is yes, looking over them. Generally speaking, being able to execute epic combos and get those crazy kills that require an epic combination of skill and luck, that is considered fun. And I think these kits promote that, because they are designed to work well together. That's arguably the biggest beauty of a thematic kit- your skills work well in tandem. See his Yorick ability kit for a pretty fantastic example of skills working together to create awesomeness. So at least for the player, I am thinking yes these would be fun. Are all of them going to be amazingly fun? Probably not. But in real LoL, that is the case too. With 100+ champions (or in this case, ~75), the odds are that at least one or two champions aren't quite thoroughly thought through (that was really fun to type). Maybe he was tired, maybe he just doesn't play the champ often enough to have a good sense for their feel...but that is definitely a minority of the ones I have seen. Additionally, without the numbers for the abilities, it is impossible to have an accurate prediction.

My last indicator of "fun" is whether or not you are fun to fight against. I have personal opinions about this, since I don't like certain LoL mechanics. But ignoring that- I don't really see any enormous problems and I haven't seen any brought to the table so far.

Overall, I just don't see the evidence that the dress will be uncomfortable or in any way worse for the wear, and no reason why the wearer wouldn't want to wear it. As someone mentioned before, people don't like change in general, and change for the sake of change isn't necessarily a good thing. But I don't see this as change for the sake of change- I think it makes the champions better fit the roles they are supposed to play, which is good. And most importantly, it addresses the enormous, crisis-level problem Riot has where you can divide over 100 champions into maybe 5-6 categories and every.single.champion fits comfortably- and given that means there are 10+ champions in each of those categories, inevitably some of them become copy cats or better replacements which is not really a good thing. Thematic mechanics go a long way towards repairing that problem.
I cried tears of joy reading this - seriously. It basically all sums up what we would say against the 'this would be OP, or this would not work in comparison with current League'

And I agree with people saying that some designs look really tricky because as a matter of fact they do. I don't agree that these designs wouldn't work or would be brokenly OP because you simply can't tell just yet. And even if some of the Redesigns wouldn't work, than ultimately the question would be: Would you like to have this Redesign if you know that it'll eventually work ? Because I would most certainly do !

With all of the redesigns champions would fit into three brackets: Aggressive, Defensive and 'Control'. There's a lot of thought-process behind that and I don't even know Ryan's/ItemsGuy's complete story behind this philosophy, but all I know is that these Redesigns are awesome and that a lot of them could easily be implemented into a new moba or heck - could even be implemented now because it is for the best; Malphite Redesign.

He fixed Malphite from the ground up, improving on readability by giving him more thematic abilities along with a new more defined and interesting playstyle rather than the dude that 'presses R and mashes three following buttons after' - while providing more counterplay than Malphite currently has 'initiate before this guy does'

Glad you liked Yorick Redesign by the way, out of all the Redesigns, this is the only one I've made (I do not plan on being a game designer I just happened to bump into ItemsGuy as well as we have bumped into you now) - yet he wanted to scrap Yorick as he thought it would look too much like Karthus, I came up with this Redesign for Yorick instead.

Thank you for your entire input here in this thread dude, you are making a lot of things easier for us, heck - you even have explained things better than we have (in terms of keeping it as short as possible).


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Xian217

Member

01-23-2013

I haven't read through every champion redesign, I'd say about 30 of them, but you seem to be built purely on just having it play a role or a specific theme, based on how they look, instead of actually having mechanics that fit well with eachother and are balanced. For instance, a good portion of your redesigned abilities, like Ashe, are for some reason channels. Others have had some of their CC snipped or cut out entirely. You also seem to throw in a good amount of random abilities that are made for a sort of pseudo-RP experience that would just react horribly in game.

Innate: Arcane Essence
For every 200 units Ezreal moves, he stores 1 stack of Arcane Essence, up to 10. Stacks of Arcane Essence are consumed by Ezrealís abilities.

This just turns Ezreal from someone who is about landing skill shots to someone who has to just run around constantly for Arcane stacks. Ironic, considering you're claiming he should be a "straight-up mage". At this point he seems to not fill much of a purpose other than running around and busting his Q, or using his ult to teleport everywhere and then healing his mana back with his W. Such a design makes him not about using every ability to its fullest but instead just having 2 abilities for the entire character. I know that he doesn't have to have full stacks, but the damage will either not have to scale well enough for him to bother running around or be miniscule without any stacks. Or it will be an initiation only thing, but that still doesn't make a ground breaking change with his kit. All it does it give him a botched passive like Ashe's.

Oh and whats with so many abilities being set ups? Fiddles sets up Scarecrows to do anything. Galio sets up idols. Yorick sets up graves. Heimer sets up even more micromanaging machines. Gangplank sets up ropes...seriously? A lot of these rely on constant planning, can be destroyed by anyone just walking by and right clicking, and seem to just be filler because you couldn't think of anything. Just say that you hit a writer's block instead of butchering a character and claiming it's "thematic"

Oh, and on the topic of theme, let's discuss what you really mean and why you contradict yourself numerous times throughout the course of this thread. Nowhere through the splash art of Ezreal's character do you get this theme that he is an explorer. I didn't know what the hell Ezreal's deal was until I read the lore. Which you claim is a "Burden of Knowledge". Yet you turn Kha'Zix into a mantis bug type thing, not based on his lore(like Ezreal), but entirely based on his appearances.

You seem to flicker in and off between which you think should be "Burden of Knowledges" and which should be just what they appear to be. Others claim to want to get rid of "Burden of Knowledge" while making you entirely burdened by the knowledge of what your team does, regardless, and what your enemy does in order to be even close to effective. Sona appears to be very similar to Invoker, and Invoker is not a Hero that you can just understand the moves of at first sight. You have to be burdened by the knowledge of this Hero to even begin to be good with him, and I'd assume it goes the same for Sona. Her splash art just doesn't say enough about her to assume she'd be Wex Exorting. Unless LoL 2 is going to be a 1v1 or something. Which takes me to my next point.

None of these abilities seem to work together well at all. Most of the champions seem to just hug their turret and attack from very far away to even be close to effective, while others are about sitting in a bush longer than even Garen just waiting for them to walk past. I think a ward war would even be more interesting than this.

In short, it seems that you're just trying to complain about certain parts not fitting appearances, while others don't fit lore. It's very disgusting to see you contradict yourself on multiple occasions. Added in with many very complex playstyles while fitting in with a goal of being even more noob friendly, and you just get a mess. You were right about a few champions needing remakes, like Fiddles, but your approach is just awful.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian217 View Post
I haven't read through every champion redesign, I'd say about 30 of them, but you seem to be built purely on just having it play a role or a specific theme, based on how they look, instead of actually having mechanics that fit well with eachother and are balanced. For instance, a good portion of your redesigned abilities, like Ashe, are for some reason channels. Others have had some of their CC snipped or cut out entirely. You also seem to throw in a good amount of random abilities that are made for a sort of pseudo-RP experience that would just react horribly in game.

Innate: Arcane Essence
For every 200 units Ezreal moves, he stores 1 stack of Arcane Essence, up to 10. Stacks of Arcane Essence are consumed by Ezreal’s abilities.

This just turns Ezreal from someone who is about landing skill shots to someone who has to just run around constantly for Arcane stacks. Ironic, considering you're claiming he should be a "straight-up mage". At this point he seems to not fill much of a purpose other than running around and busting his Q, or using his ult to teleport everywhere and then healing his mana back with his W. Such a design makes him not about using every ability to its fullest but instead just having 2 abilities for the entire character. I know that he doesn't have to have full stacks, but the damage will either not have to scale well enough for him to bother running around or be miniscule without any stacks. Or it will be an initiation only thing, but that still doesn't make a ground breaking change with his kit. All it does it give him a botched passive like Ashe's.

Oh and whats with so many abilities being set ups? Fiddles sets up Scarecrows to do anything. Galio sets up idols. Yorick sets up graves. Heimer sets up even more micromanaging machines. Gangplank sets up ropes...seriously? A lot of these rely on constant planning, can be destroyed by anyone just walking by and right clicking, and seem to just be filler because you couldn't think of anything. Just say that you hit a writer's block instead of butchering a character and claiming it's "thematic"

Oh, and on the topic of theme, let's discuss what you really mean and why you contradict yourself numerous times throughout the course of this thread. Nowhere through the splash art of Ezreal's character do you get this theme that he is an explorer. I didn't know what the hell Ezreal's deal was until I read the lore. Which you claim is a "Burden of Knowledge". Yet you turn Kha'Zix into a mantis bug type thing, not based on his lore(like Ezreal), but entirely based on his appearances.

You seem to flicker in and off between which you think should be "Burden of Knowledges" and which should be just what they appear to be. Others claim to want to get rid of "Burden of Knowledge" while making you entirely burdened by the knowledge of what your team does, regardless, and what your enemy does in order to be even close to effective. Sona appears to be very similar to Invoker, and Invoker is not a Hero that you can just understand the moves of at first sight. You have to be burdened by the knowledge of this Hero to even begin to be good with him, and I'd assume it goes the same for Sona. Her splash art just doesn't say enough about her to assume she'd be Wex Exorting. Unless LoL 2 is going to be a 1v1 or something. Which takes me to my next point.

None of these abilities seem to work together well at all. Most of the champions seem to just hug their turret and attack from very far away to even be close to effective, while others are about sitting in a bush longer than even Garen just waiting for them to walk past. I think a ward war would even be more interesting than this.

In short, it seems that you're just trying to complain about certain parts not fitting appearances, while others don't fit lore. It's very disgusting to see you contradict yourself on multiple occasions. Added in with many very complex playstyles while fitting in with a goal of being even more noob friendly, and you just get a mess. You were right about a few champions needing remakes, like Fiddles, but your approach is just awful.
Concerning the stuff you say about the Redesigns, this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiBelgarath View Post
Well, I think theoretically that a better designed game is defined by a game that more people enjoy playing (or, if the design is being upgraded, perhaps the game that people now enjoy playing more), since the point of a game is to be enjoyed. So the question would be: would people like these changes?

I think that divides into multiple parts: the first question is, mechanically are these characters at least as good as the characters they are updating from. And the answer to that is: you are trying to compare apples and oranges. It says very specifically on his (or her) blog that:

"None of the changes in these (theoretical) redesigns are intended for LoL as it currently stands, and are purely examples of what champions could've been if their kits had stayed true to their theming 100%, creating playstyles that better reflect the nature of the champions they belong to. If anything, they would be more fit for a sequel game--a LoL 2 of sorts--allowing fans of the old champions to stick with kits they're familiar with, while giving Riot the opportunity to start anew and create stronger designs with the experience they've accumulated over the years."

As such I derive the idea that these changes aren't actually intended to be balanced with the current system, which is the system we are all accustomed to. Players who've been playing these champions, some for several years, would have to get used to these changes- and many probably wouldn't feel comfortable with that change. Therefore, I'm not sure the champions are entirely comparable. I think a better question is: are the themes well represented, and if a system consisting of these modified champions were to be created, would that system then be reasonably balanced. Given that I had never seen these champions before today, and don't have much experience analyzing balance, I am certainly not in a position to make a decision on that front. I would trust Morello or IronStylus, though.

A second part would be: are these actually fun? Disregarding the changes, and looking solely at these champions, would people enjoy playing them? I would guess the answer to that question is yes, looking over them. Generally speaking, being able to execute epic combos and get those crazy kills that require an epic combination of skill and luck, that is considered fun. And I think these kits promote that, because they are designed to work well together. That's arguably the biggest beauty of a thematic kit- your skills work well in tandem. See his Yorick ability kit for a pretty fantastic example of skills working together to create awesomeness. So at least for the player, I am thinking yes these would be fun. Are all of them going to be amazingly fun? Probably not. But in real LoL, that is the case too. With 100+ champions (or in this case, ~75), the odds are that at least one or two champions aren't quite thoroughly thought through (that was really fun to type). Maybe he was tired, maybe he just doesn't play the champ often enough to have a good sense for their feel...but that is definitely a minority of the ones I have seen. Additionally, without the numbers for the abilities, it is impossible to have an accurate prediction.

My last indicator of "fun" is whether or not you are fun to fight against. I have personal opinions about this, since I don't like certain LoL mechanics. But ignoring that- I don't really see any enormous problems and I haven't seen any brought to the table so far.

Overall, I just don't see the evidence that the dress will be uncomfortable or in any way worse for the wear, and no reason why the wearer wouldn't want to wear it. As someone mentioned before, people don't like change in general, and change for the sake of change isn't necessarily a good thing. But I don't see this as change for the sake of change- I think it makes the champions better fit the roles they are supposed to play, which is good. And most importantly, it addresses the enormous, crisis-level problem Riot has where you can divide over 100 champions into maybe 5-6 categories and every.single.champion fits comfortably- and given that means there are 10+ champions in each of those categories, inevitably some of them become copy cats or better replacements which is not really a good thing. Thematic mechanics go a long way towards repairing that problem.
Quote:
Oh and whats with so many abilities being set ups?
Do the Redesigns have too much of them - or current League too few ? All of the 'setups' you see in the Redesign fit their theme and could work, note the ones you have mentioned are like, 9 - 10 out of all champions, out of all the Redesigns ?

Leaves a pretty big number for champions that don't have this setting up thing.

Quote:
Oh, and on the topic of theme, let's discuss what you really mean and why you contradict yourself numerous times throughout the course of this thread. Nowhere through the splash art of Ezreal's character do you get this theme that he is an explorer. I didn't know what the hell Ezreal's deal was until I read the lore. Which you claim is a "Burden of Knowledge". Yet you turn Kha'Zix into a mantis bug type thing, not based on his lore(like Ezreal), but entirely based on his appearances.
Exactly. And I tried to use Ezreal as a better example of a champion that fits his lore and reflects that in appearance while staying true to his theme - while if this would be the case he wouldn't have got his Redesign, perhaps you wouldn't have needed to read his lore if you played against Redesign Ezreal. So yeah, Ezreal isn't 100% readable, hence he has a Redesign.

Kha'Zix ? That would be the case of the lore justifying his flaws, so correct - Kha'Zix would need completely new lore as right now it pretty much forces to read his lore before you get why he has his evolution mechanic, whereas on Redesign Viktor this concept feels natural.

That said - we NEVER want to base a character on lore, lore should leave an emphasis on the theme of the character, it shouldn't help shape it. Like Redesign Ezreal, he would be a Explorer from the get-go and his story lays an emphasis on that, going in greater detail of the character.

Kha'Zix ? Not sure where he is about currently, the story doesn't lay an emphasis because there is nothing to lay an emphasis on if you don't know what it's all about in the first place - hence Redesign Kha'Zix would need new lore that fits his new theming playstyle, something that is readable from the get-go.

Quote:
You seem to flicker in and off between which you think should be "Burden of Knowledges" and which should be just what they appear to be. Others claim to want to get rid of "Burden of Knowledge" while making you entirely burdened by the knowledge of what your team does, regardless, and what your enemy does in order to be even close to effective. Sona appears to be very similar to Invoker, and Invoker is not a Hero that you can just understand the moves of at first sight. You have to be burdened by the knowledge of this Hero to even begin to be good with him, and I'd assume it goes the same for Sona. Her splash art just doesn't say enough about her to assume she'd be Wex Exorting. Unless LoL 2 is going to be a 1v1 or something. Which takes me to my next point.
We try to get rid of burden of knowledge as much as possible as making characters fit to their appearance, hence everything they do makes sense.

Good picking Sona out there - this is even mentioned in the Redesign explanation, I suggest you should read that.

It's not the Redesign making her less readable, the theme is the entire problem in the first place. 'Magical Music' isn't readable, but it's an extremely cool theme - I like Sona as a character, definetely.

Quote:
-Sona, the Maven of the Strings.

Currently, Sona is a champion with little depth, she basically mashes on Q, W, E mindlessly.
The theme/playstyle of playing the appropriate music/chords depending on the situation is currently only captured by her passive wich is only a minor part of her kit. (It is still very cool though)

Redesign Sona completely gets to play the appropriate chords/music for every situation rather than mashing on 3 buttons with an ult (This is what she does currently).

She would be like playing a little version of Guitar Hero in League. Cool.

Note: Her Ultimate would be her bread and butter skill and would have a fairly low cooldown.

PS: In terms of readability - you'd have my approval of this going in the direction of 'Burden of Knowledge'.
However, considering the nature of the theme that fits with the abilities/playstyle combined with the fact that all of these Redesigns would more than compensate for the amount of Burden of Knowledge being removed that currently exists in League, I'm pretty sure there would be more than enough room to fit this Redesign Sona in there, regardless of the fact she requires more reading in to her before people can enjoy themselves.
Invoker does random things/a lot of things for the sake of doing these things, Sona can do these combinations/things while they make sense: Playing different kinds of music.

Quote:
None of these abilities seem to work together well at all. Most of the champions seem to just hug their turret and attack from very far away to even be close to effective, while others are about sitting in a bush longer than even Garen just waiting for them to walk past. I think a ward war would even be more interesting than this.

In short, it seems that you're just trying to complain about certain parts not fitting appearances, while others don't fit lore. It's very disgusting to see you contradict yourself on multiple occasions. Added in with many very complex playstyles while fitting in with a goal of being even more noob friendly, and you just get a mess. You were right about a few champions needing remakes, like Fiddles, but your approach is just awful.
Note: just because a kit doesn't reflect into a specific combo (Maokai E followed by W and Q and R) doesn't mean there is no flow in the kit, Maokai Redesign would perfectly fit yet it depends on the situation in what order you are going to use your skills, similar Brand Redesign.

I ask you to come out with more examples of how we contradict ourselves, it seems you are misinterpretting us, especially since you mentioned the 'lore' argument, as we've been trying to say from the start you shouldn't need lore to help a character, it's fine to lay an emphasis though.


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The Unchosen One

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Good job Itemsguy, make a SCAD alum proud.

Hows monty these days? Still as zombie-resistant as ever?