Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? @Morello @Feralpony @IronStylus @Xypherous

First Riot Post
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YamiBelgarath

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01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cha0sniper View Post
No, that's more true of DotA, and something that Riot (specifically Zileas) has said they want to avoid in LoL. Having a game be over at champ select due to hard counterpicks doesn't make for very interesting gameplay.
No, no- that's not what I'm saying. The game shouldn't be OVER in champ select- but it creates strategy of it's own. I maintain my examples- look at the tournaments, especially the season 2 finals. Teams were constantly target banning- because you don't want to just hand people the win by letting them play champions you don't feel comfortable going against.

I guess I disagree that Zyra, in the redesign, would be as over powered if not counter picked as you claim. I think that maybe you'll have someone who specializes in Zyra so she gets banned, or she'll need slight re-turning, whether in design or AP ratio, in which case she'll also get banned. But honestly, looking at her kit, I don't see it being bad. Honestly, the main difference is her ult (which is a reasonable redesign regarding balance, especially since the old one was so strong in team fights). Honestly, I would expect that she's going to need reasonably high AP ratios to be viable.

Also, it's worth bearing in mind that he uses X everywhere instead of numbers- simply manipulating the numbers will play a huge part in the balance. It's impossible for many redesigns to figure how viable they will be. The point of the redesign was to address design flaws, not crunch numbers (correct me if I'm wrong author people).

Overall, I think games are at least as defined in champ select now as they would be with these changes. If you watch streams or even just play the game regardless, there are a fair number of games defined at champ select. It's not a majority, and I'm not accusing Riot of poor balance. I'm just saying- with 100+ champions, inevitable some team comps are going to be much stronger than others, and Riot has no power to determine who takes what champions and how much cooperation there is.


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Greedily

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01-22-2013

After skimming through the posts, I noticed that Darius was mentioned quite a few times. Following the "role-playing" situation that the OP posted, I don't understand what is wrong with Darius.

He's basically a "do whatever I want" kinda guy, who is really working to further improve his country. While playing him, I feel as if he fits into his role playing very well. He swings around a giant axe, he slows enemies to stop them from getting away, has a pull to keep them near, and his spin to inflict damage. Then, of course, there is his ultimate. His main thing is, he kills people. All of his skills fit into the theme of killing people. His passive even works into it nicely. He beats em up and makes em bleed, then he chops off their heads.

I will not deny he lacks counter play, but I really must say he is quite an enjoyable champion to play. He has the feel of somebody who is important, and he is a bad ass. That's who he is. I feel that the auto-refresh ulti is a bit "un-fun", but in all honesty, I don't think it is as bad as GD makes it out to be. Like Morello stated in his other post, maybe making the scaling on his bleed more severe would improve things, but in all reality, if a team is behind, Darius isn't going to carry them magically to a victory. He builds tanky and does damage, but he isn't a hyper carry. His ult won't win fights all the time, it will just clean them up very nicely. I will agree, if the fight is close, and Darius has his way, he can easily get a penta and turn the game around, but how many times does this actually happen?

I feel there is too much Darius QQ around, and people don't really realize how much counter play there is to Darius. Some tops that counter play his pull are Riven with her stun and shield escape, Wukong with his ulti, Irelia with her stun/slow and a jump, Garen with his slow cleanse/move speed buff/silence, and spin, Singed with his poison/flip, Malphite with his armour, slow, and ground pound thingy, even Vi with her Q escape. These are all champions who have some counter play to Darius. Sure I think that more counter play could be implemented on Darius, but I would be sad if they ruined such a great champion because of it. Darius isn't as OP as he was when he was first released, and he is in a better place now. Yes, he is hell for some match ups, but for others he is not a big presence. He shines in team fights, but so do many other champs like Wukong.

I have fun playing Darius, not just because I can murder entire teams with his ulti, but because playing him makes me feel like a bad ass, because he is. When playing him, his theme shines, and you feel as if you really are playing a bad ass who goes around and does what he wants for his own selfish, and somewhat non-selfish, goals.

Just my two cents, sorry for long post.
TL;DR: Darius has a nice theme, and it shines when you play him. GD doesn't give credit to the counter play there actually is against him, but there could be a bit more.


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BadgerDrool

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01-22-2013

I'm tired, dizzy, mopey, and stressed. Wish I could give this thread the attention it deserves.

I want to point out one thing about design. Even good design. Heck, especially good design. Appropriateness matters too. A great design falls flat when it is applied at the wrong time and place. Almost like proper application of a specific flavor in cooking. (Yes, it's possible to misuse Bacon)

Take SCII's single player. I cannot say Wing's of Liberties missions where poorly designed. They are clearly all very well designed single player missions. However, it's a good design that's over used in a game that screams for another gameplay pattern. There's no Macro style missions late game. Thus the player resents a good design because they never get a chance to use all their shiny toys they way they want to. A more balanced mix of missions would have greatly improved WoL's campaign.

Quote:
Because the medium we're using to deliver characters is a core, PC, PvP game, the important driving force becomes mechanics.
Due to the type of game LoL is, appropriateness of mechanics becomes extremely important. To the point where other things need to be sacrificed. A thematically cool looking ability that's utterly unreadable due to it's spelleffects is worse then a blander version that's easy to read. Despite the cool version involving good ideas.


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Ding an Sich

Senior Member

01-22-2013

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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
@Morello

Again, if I could work to make my points as clear as possible--as far as theme and gameplay depth go, they're fine on their own, but prioritizing either can be problematic. Either way, no matter which you prioritize, it will never yield as good a result as if you used them in harmony! Bread alone is flavorless, jam alone is sticky and unpleasant, and peanutbutter sticks to the roof of your mouth--but when you put them all together, you get a delicious sandwich!

Sorry if I'm bogging you down with food metaphors, it's a bad habit.
I'm not sure if morello has said he doesn't care enough on the presentation. Because of the actual evolving competitive role of league itself, and the theme of the game, I think morello is all for trying to find and put a good amount of jam with the bread, I just don't think he cares too much on what type of jam.

You also used a canteen example, in which it might be an overstep on your part again to take his less noticeable views on depth and say he doesn't want a canteen at all. I think its more a fact they have to get the right liquid substance with the right canteen, but as far as then making the two perfect for each other doesn't quite fall under the harsh realm of reality. So as long as the green canteen holds enough water for Person type A, as well as maybe retaining some of its use through untouched exposure, then they would pat themselves on the back.

Now i could be mistaken, and you are just using absolutes loosely in terms of personal preference to better illustrate your point if you fear being too moderate might not push the memo. Regardless though fun posts and I hope morello responds to you, I like saving red responses especially on big subjects that impact a good portion of the league.


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Daemon

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ding an Sich View Post
Very interesting post. However do you feel you may be erring to far on the side of creativity and aesthetics? Now this isn't to say like some ideas, you value how the champion looks, but more so how it feels. And while this would be, or in fact actually is a huge characteristic (as we've seen with champions designs like omen) do you worry you're dressing them too much to play the part and not actually play the game for itself?

Or to restate: You can make every experience with every champion feel like they belong and play in an actual "league of fighters" sort of deal, but when at the end of the day its a competitive game that has to follow a game playing function, and not a role play function, how important or how valued should this variable actually be?

This is a major issue with female champions. Most are all dressed to fit some sort of role...and questionably dressed at that. MF and Ahri are coherent, sexy designs. Why is Syndra in BSDM gear? Why is Akali a ninja that wears next to nothing? Why does Caitlyn wear a tiny purple dress if she is the sheriff of a huge city? See, it doesn't make too much sense. There's nothing about their character that would imply their desire to wear very little, but yet they do. Ahri and MF, on the other hand, make complete sense.

Darius and Draven are perfect examples of "designing to fit a character and theme". Draven does not wear armor. He is not a warrior, he is an executioner. Darius, however, is a warrior, therefore he wears armor.

The differences between Shen and Akali is an example of terrible design. Shen is a melee ninja, so he wears light armor so he can be all ninja-like and be protected. Akali is a melee ninja, but wears next to nothing. From all the ninjas, you'd think she'd wear something. There is nothing in the lore to denote her choice of wearing next to nothing.
Her lore says, "She has had to do much in this role which others might find morally questionable..." Does that mean marching into battle half-naked?! Lee Sin is a melee fighter and doesn't wear a shirt. However, he is the archetype of a kung-fu warrior monk from cheesy kung fu movies. You instantly associate that with shirtless, beefy guys covered in oil to make them all sweaty. When I think of female ninja, I think of a woman dressed in an outfit that is no different than a male ninja's outfit. They are both serving a similar role.


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Daemon

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadgerDrool View Post



Due to the type of game LoL is, appropriateness of mechanics becomes extremely important. To the point where other things need to be sacrificed. A thematically cool looking ability that's utterly unreadable due to it's spelleffects is worse then a blander version that's easy to read. Despite the cool version involving good ideas.

Zed's ultimate is the epitome of this.

Also, arguably Thresh.


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Daryslash

Senior Member

01-22-2013

No one can point me out to the Diana/Leona thing? :/


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YamiBelgarath

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01-22-2013

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Originally Posted by Daryslash View Post
No one can point me out to the Diana/Leona thing? :/

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=3013310

Use control F to find Leona and Diana

http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/201...iant-dawn.html <<Leona
http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/201...n-of-moon.html << Diana


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Daryslash

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Thanks, man, I love you.


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Ding an Sich

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon View Post
This is a major issue with female champions. Most are all dressed to fit some sort of role...and questionably dressed at that. MF and Ahri are coherent, sexy designs. Why is Syndra in BSDM gear? Why is Akali a ninja that wears next to nothing? Why does Caitlyn wear a tiny purple dress if she is the sheriff of a huge city? See, it doesn't make too much sense. There's nothing about their character that would imply their desire to wear very little, but yet they do. Ahri and MF, on the other hand, make complete sense.

Darius and Draven are perfect examples of "designing to fit a character and theme". Draven does not wear armor. He is not a warrior, he is an executioner. Darius, however, is a warrior, therefore he wears armor.

The differences between Shen and Akali is an example of terrible design. Shen is a melee ninja, so he wears light armor so he can be all ninja-like and be protected. Akali is a melee ninja, but wears next to nothing. From all the ninjas, you'd think she'd wear something. There is nothing in the lore to denote her choice of wearing next to nothing.
Her lore says, "She has had to do much in this role which others might find morally questionable..." Does that mean marching into battle half-naked?! Lee Sin is a melee fighter and doesn't wear a shirt. However, he is the archetype of a kung-fu warrior monk from cheesy kung fu movies. You instantly associate that with shirtless, beefy guys covered in oil to make them all sweaty. When I think of female ninja, I think of a woman dressed in an outfit that is no different than a male ninja's outfit. They are both serving a similar role.

I think this is the common symptom of a creature that no one likes to look at especially in games; reality.

Now point 1: Reality in this context would mean that if riot made a complete pacifist champion (a support I'd wager), then it would be completely for the character to never harm anyone at all. So they could't AA, use ignite, etc. But even though for the thing in itself the character would benefit from this honesty at heart, in this game it would suffer because this isn't the purpose. Now would riot ever make such a directly cognitively split champion for the user to play ON PURPOSE? I don't believe so, but this is just an example of point 1 of what I mean by reality.

Point 2: What makes people play this game? Any game? what makes them like characters superficially or for their depth? Even though alot of countries that have a high number of gamers who play a variety of games, don't explicitly (now there are good exceptions) yell for **** or lolipop chainsaw. They do nontheless continue to show **** or edgy gore or superficial traits. Why? Regardless of how much we like to ignore more baseless things (sometimes. Some games are for the sake of enjoyment so TF2/MW/etc ) it still attracts us and sometimes is the only thing that makes up pick up the game. Now that's not to say a gross exaggeration of Akali having DD's with them at least 30% showing is good for the game past a very short point.. but still.

Point 3: Is there a much better compromise? Situation? Design? If we are optimist we will hope and believe so and give ideas for such. However there is a limited number of resources, people, and minutes in the day. And even when you have crazy rioters who probably breath Lol, that sill isn't enough in any dimension. So it might be worth 5 points to the entire player base to fix all of those character issues NOWZ! But while that piece of lol is fixed, what hasn't been touched or upkept probably produces more suffering and displeasure for the LoL community than having syndra wear BDSM when i feel she is into role playing.

By the way I'm not disagreeing with you, there are things that need to be looked at, I just feel based on all the responses in the past 2+years have incurred thanks to the huge growth of LoL this has been a sticky answer that can usually be said without much disagreement.