Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? @Morello @Feralpony @IronStylus @Xypherous

First Riot Post
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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We actually usually do as you describe many times - making the abilities fit the character. Some are different, depending on the source material, but even someone I think is good (like Varus) was the Q gameplay first. I think it's a simple problem, but the solution is very nuanced and complex. I think one problem is that we had a hard time getting a "vision" of the character to be clean and clear, and when we mess up, it's because we try to do a bunch of things in a sub-par way instead of 1 or 2 in a very clean way.
Ryan aka ItemsGuy is currently working on a response of your first post - I really hope you'll be responding to that as I think the back and forth conversation/discussion would be very much interesting.

On a side-note: could you explain to me how Varus's design is readable, his theme ?
Looking at his splash art you are getting no more than 'dude with an atheletic body effected by some stuff.' Hence in the Varus Redesign ItemsGuy has made him an 'acrobat archer', being atheletic and agile and all.

Also - what's your opinion on stuff like Brand's Q and W - having W not contributing to his theme in terms of his E and R do (R spreading fire, E burns and enhances both with his passive, E spreads when targets are ablaze aswell as R seeking targets that are ablaze)

Brand's W is no more than a AoE nuke with fire particles, aswell as Q is a lined skillshot with fire particles, they don't really contribute to his theme or 'theming playstyle' except from adding the passive aswell, yet E and R contribute to his theme as individual skills, in combination with adding his passive.

Seems like you gave brand 'a stun for the sake of a stun' - wich also goes on conflict with readability. In my opinion this really waters the experience of playing the ultimate fire mage, as Brand is more about bursting rather than literally burning people alive as that's how fire acts as source material. The ultimate 'Fire Mage' with the 'Fire spreads and burns' playstyle is in my opinion barely present, especially since W is like his bread and butter normal ability, you aren't truly a master of fire.

PS: That's it for me, I hope Ryan will be done soon with his response - I'm going to bed, I'm from EUW. Thanks Morello, hope this discussion will last.


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Morello

Lead Designer

01-22-2013
5 of 22 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slarg232 View Post
Hey Morello, not exactly the thread for this, but have you guys ever thought of doing a "Fairy Dragon Event" like what happened with DotA? You guys make a champ's model and stuff, then release him/her to the forums to see what kind of skill set you get back that you can tweak/change as needed?
We've talked about it briefly, but I think it has some of the same problems as the Champion Submission thing. I think the potential to feel left out, or not like the changes we make is higher than the amount of good we'd get out of it.

Not saying we never would, but currently I'm not really for it.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morphine View Post
Sorry, but this argument strikes me as more than a little ridiculous, and I feel like these buzzwords ("toxic", "burden of knowledge", etc.) are getting way out of hand. People can enjoy a mechanic without knowing its relevance in lore - lore enhances relevance, it doesn't define it.

Bloodseeker ult? Chaos Knight? Invoker? Sure. Burden of Knowledge. Kha'zix? No way.
That's not our point - some abilities can be extremely readable without contributing to theme, that doesn't mean these abilities should randomly be justified or left there as they could be used for a character that enhances the experience of playing that character if it does fit the theme.

Agreed, some mechanics or abilities are so extremely readable you only have to see them a few times and you get how they work, that doesn't mean those abilities do not water down the expierence of playing the character though - as a matter of fact they do.


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Professor Maple

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Recruiter

01-22-2013

My favorite champions are Udyr, Cho'gath, Singed, Garen, Warwick, and I am now learning Olaf. I love the in your face, fear me playstyle that these champs have. I think some of these champions offer a lot more hidden complexity than some think. Compared to many newer champions some of these guys have a much larger opportunity cost or are actually restricted by their mana pool for most of the game.

Udyr - The epitome of melee. Everything he does is "channeled" through his auto attacks. He has a great feel to him with the stance based design. The decision tree of when to use skills is the right level of complexity and it feels natural when I'm playing him.

Cho'gath - Becoming that giant monster is so satisfying. If you let this guy get too close to your team someone is going to be losing a large chunk of health. Rupture is a great skill because it gives your opponents a chance to get out of the way.

Singed - His ability to just take no damage late game is probably a bit problematic. He is weak in lane, but as soon as he gets the advantage on you there isn't much you can do to come back. I wouldn't say he is complex but he definitely isn't simple.

Garen - I think garen is a manaless champ done correctly. Every single one of his abilities has opportunity costs attached to them and highly encourages using them at the proper time.

Warwick - My favorite thing about Warwick is his ultimate. You always have to take into account cc that can knock you out of it but a Warwick with ult up in team fights can completely zone out smart enemies. As soon as he uses it he isn't scary. I also love the bloodscent as it really gives him the hunter stalking his prey feeling.

Olaf - This is a new favorite because flying into the enemy team is so satisfying. You can walk up to anyone and just "punch" them in the face until they kill you or you kill them.

I am a huge fan of "all in" type champions but they are definitely weaker now due the almost necessity of every champ having a disengage. After I pick up Olaf I plan to work on my nocturne, xin, and jarvan play.

Immersion is probably the most important aspect of this game to me. Continue to make great themes and abilities that are not only fun to use but make me feel like I am the champion.


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YamiBelgarath

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Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithrowrocksatchi View Post
I was thinking, why build someone's story first and THEN build their skillset? I think thats what gets a character like Kogmaw into the "lore pit" where his story is about him eating things but his abilities is of him spitting out stuff. I think if RIOT just created a new character and their movesets first and after molded and shaped their lore from their design and gameplay, we would get a lot more consistent characters, but thats just my opinion.
Because ability creation is a very precise art, and to bring four separate abilities together into one theme requires a plan. Lee Sin is a great example of this, as the OP mentioned- he has 4 very interesting abilities, which I think have great potential, but make absolutely no sense with his character.

In order to make a character with an interesting theme and interesting abilities as well as a comfortable place in Runeterra, you need to know what they do, who they are, what makes them innately unique from the 100+ other legends. Once you have set up an interesting profile, you can then proceed to make abilities based on that profile. It's not enough just to make an interesting character OR to make interesting abilities...you have to combine the two to make a truly functional champion.


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Auryiel

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Member

01-22-2013

Not gonna lie, most of those I read I completely disagree with. Morgana becomes a support that protects allies? Why? She's a fallen angel out on a quest for power to dethrone the tyrannical government her sister is a part of.

Also, I know you guys probably didn't really care about this, but most of the champions you remade would be insanely weak. Ahri, for example, would have no wave clearing and she wouldn't fit any role.
LeBlanc would lose a lot of burst for some minor utility that doesn't even compete with her current ability (I agree that she's not deceiving at all and I like your idea for the passive, but the rest of her kit seems like a mess to me).
Veigar having a stun is relevant to his kit actually working together. The random nature of the ''spell absorption'' seems rather unfun, tbh.
Zyra's plants in your suggested iteration are just way too weak for how core they would be to her gameplay. She'd be insanely weak without them and yet she can't use them quickly, on the fly. She is FORCED into planning her moves a long time in advance, which has proven to be a rather weak mechanic in LoL. Syndra's a perfect example of that, because as soon as she has 2 spheres out, you know all she's trying to do is land a stun and combo you.

I liked Malz, though (well the general idea behind it) but honestly it would be a PAIN to play this champion without the ability to select multiple units.
Vlad seems like he would be pretty fun to play, but you should refrain from writing things like ''Channel for 2 seconds''. Anyone with such a long cast time would have a useless ability, because you can walk away from it or have a LOT of time to interrupt it.

I liked reading it, though


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serverny JR

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Sorry for off-topick, but i noticed active Morello here - can you please pay some attention and maybe answer << season 3 carry junglers wHERE ? >> question ?
Thanks in advance.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auryiel View Post
Not gonna lie, most of those I read I completely disagree with. Morgana becomes a support that protects allies? Why? She's a fallen angel out on a quest for power to dethrone the tyrannical government her sister is a part of.

Also, I know you guys probably didn't really care about this, but most of the champions you remade would be insanely weak. Ahri, for example, would have no wave clearing and she wouldn't fit any role.
LeBlanc would lose a lot of burst for some minor utility that doesn't even compete with her current ability (I agree that she's not deceiving at all and I like your idea for the passive, but the rest of her kit seems like a mess to me).
Veigar having a stun is relevant to his kit actually working together. The random nature of the ''spell absorption'' seems rather unfun, tbh.
Zyra's plants in your suggested iteration are just way too weak for how core they would be to her gameplay. She'd be insanely weak without them and yet she can't use them quickly, on the fly. She is FORCED into planning her moves a long time in advance, which has proven to be a rather weak mechanic in LoL. Syndra's a perfect example of that, because as soon as she has 2 spheres out, you know all she's trying to do is land a stun and combo you.

I liked Malz, though (well the general idea behind it) but honestly it would be a PAIN to play this champion without the ability to select multiple units.
Vlad seems like he would be pretty fun to play, but you should refrain from writing things like ''Channel for 2 seconds''. Anyone with such a long cast time would have a useless ability, because you can walk away from it or have a LOT of time to interrupt it.

I liked reading it, though
The Redesigns are all working to one common goal, in Zyra's case wrecking balls with her plants, taking care of them and growing them.

Zyra can play smart and do lots of stuff to keep them healthy and make it work while her enemies can do tons of things to shut down her plants.

What you explain here is simply the Darius argument - hence they might even make that argument stronger if the ideas of Morello on Darius will eventually come reality: defined strengths and weaknesses.

There is literally nothing Darius can do if he isn't close to enemies, while he wrecks balls if they are close. This is exactly the same as 'Zyra being useless without her plants' - wich is a good things, as Zyra Redesign is the ultimate plant mage she could have been with proper and readable counterplay, whereas right now you might like the fact she doesn't rely on her plants completely, it makes her more generic and more stale as she feels more like a typicalp teamfighting burst mage rather than the ultimate plant mage.

That said - it is not an argument, it's just a different type of champion design, a different perspective where you rely on teampicks more to cover your weaknesses. For example, Brand loses his stun in the Redesign but he'll do more damage if people are clumped up - yet he can't keep them clumped up himself, hence something like Amumu would really work well together.

Note: this even happens now - synergy between picks. We just serperate champions even more to make them more unique, that doesn't mean they are useless, they have defined strength and weaknesses.


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YamiBelgarath

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Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auryiel View Post
Not gonna lie, most of those I read I completely disagree with. Morgana becomes a support that protects allies? Why? She's a fallen angel out on a quest for power to dethrone the tyrannical government her sister is a part of.

Also, I know you guys probably didn't really care about this, but most of the champions you remade would be insanely weak. Ahri, for example, would have no wave clearing and she wouldn't fit any role.
LeBlanc would lose a lot of burst for some minor utility that doesn't even compete with her current ability (I agree that she's not deceiving at all and I like your idea for the passive, but the rest of her kit seems like a mess to me).
Veigar having a stun is relevant to his kit actually working together. The random nature of the ''spell absorption'' seems rather unfun, tbh.
Zyra's plants in your suggested iteration are just way too weak for how core they would be to her gameplay. She'd be insanely weak without them and yet she can't use them quickly, on the fly. She is FORCED into planning her moves a long time in advance, which has proven to be a rather weak mechanic in LoL. Syndra's a perfect example of that, because as soon as she has 2 spheres out, you know all she's trying to do is land a stun and combo you.

I liked Malz, though (well the general idea behind it) but honestly it would be a PAIN to play this champion without the ability to select multiple units.
Vlad seems like he would be pretty fun to play, but you should refrain from writing things like ''Channel for 2 seconds''. Anyone with such a long cast time would have a useless ability, because you can walk away from it or have a LOT of time to interrupt it.

I liked reading it, though
Two things: First off, the abilities are clearly unbalanced. I don't think that's quite the point they are making though. What they are trying to say is that it is completely possible to make LoL champions fit the theme they are given.

Second: I would just like to put out a thought: maybe LoL champions, in game, are too strong for reality? I mean, if they can do things in the real world like they do in games...I feel like Runeterra would be a lot more chaotic. I don't think Ahri literally throws a pink thing at people that charms them, if Malphite charged into a large group of people they wouldn't fly up, and Zilean doesn't revive people who just died. They also aren't enormously item or mana dependent, or I think we'd hear a lot more about people trying to sneak Deathcap or Infinity Edge out of the Institute. League is not a plausible alternative universe. I think the OP was just making it a little more reasonable- and as they point out in the blog, this isn't intended to be incorporated into League. This is for fun, and to demonstrate a point. Their modified League would make it into an entirely different game, much more focused on role play than the current version.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiBelgarath View Post
Because ability creation is a very precise art, and to bring four separate abilities together into one theme requires a plan. Lee Sin is a great example of this, as the OP mentioned- he has 4 very interesting abilities, which I think have great potential, but make absolutely no sense with his character.

In order to make a character with an interesting theme and interesting abilities as well as a comfortable place in Runeterra, you need to know what they do, who they are, what makes them innately unique from the 100+ other legends. Once you have set up an interesting profile, you can then proceed to make abilities based on that profile. It's not enough just to make an interesting character OR to make interesting abilities...you have to combine the two to make a truly functional champion.
Thank you - Lee Sin is a champion that has random abilities slapped onto him, not only have these abilities little relevance to him as a blind monk (as in him being blind does not reflect in his gameplay apart from his Q and E, but it's a pretty weak feeling of what it could be) but he's also considered to be one of the most broken champions in the game. Why ?

Because he has too much in his kit, there barely are defined strengths and weaknesses and the only counterplay you have against him isn't really counterplay, it's just the fact that you say 'hey this champion will completely screw me over the first 30 minutes and after this, if we haven't lost yet, yeah, he'll be a bit less effective'

Redesign Lee Sin focuses and captures the theme of a blind monk playstyle, focusing on locating your enemies and beating them with martial arts afterwards, while improving on readability and most certainly counterplay.

Lee Sin is fun, just not very.. healthy.