Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? @Morello @Feralpony @IronStylus @Xypherous

First Riot Post
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Worlds Smu Giest

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Lore is something I personally would like to see more of to tie champions to the league, who are they, why are they here, what are they trying to accomplish being here, what rewards are given to them for service.

Why do champions like Karthus, Syndra, or Elise feel the need to be in the league, while some are compelled others are free. Just some thinking.

Kit design, and mechanics are generally very simple or similar to each other in every champion, this person has stuns, this one is hard to kill, this one kills everyone(Riven, Darius, etc etc), This one will execute you if you are low health.

The fundamental mechanics are all very similar to each other just in different forms and styles, some champions exceed in their combinations others have a bit more of a price to pay or skill needed to use them effectively(Lee Sin).

I'd like to see more champions like Riven and katarina, cause they are fun to play. I'd like to see some new champion styles as well for example: There is no champion in league with a directional single target silence, Two champions with repositioning Hook mechanics(three with thresh), Nami and Cho'Gath are the only champions with a aoe targeting knock up, There are I believe 3-4 champions with escalating damage based on minion slaying(Nasus, Sion, Ryze, and not sure of any others), only 3 with minions(malzahar, elise, heimerdinger, and syndra doesn't count), and Global ultimates are fairly few in number but reasonable.

Alot of champions with newer mechanics have been introduced recently, kha'zix evolutions, jayce gates, Vi's on hit effects, Rengar's stacks , and syndra's balls. While other mechanics have been left alone for the most part.

I enjoy league, I will continue playing it until it no longer is entertaining.

On another note, Finish, your Skin themed lines more timely, we need more of the Crimson Elite.


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Slarg232

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pistallion View Post
def disagree. some are better some are worse. 1 example. look at drow compared to ashe. drow's kit is extremely simple and straight forward. shes not even that fun to play because of it. ashe is pretty simple too, but the rewarding feeling of hitting the arrow is one of the best in the entire game. drow has 1 usable ability, and its pretty far ranged and a pretty big area of effect.
I'm not sure you can really compare the two, as Drow can get items that give her abilities, where as Ashe is mostly just her kit.

Also, Mirana has Ashe's Arrow, so that's moot :P


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellioning View Post
Glad you weighed in on this, Morello.

I'm of the opinion that 'complexity' is good if it makes sense, and it's ACTUALLY complex. Just adding random stuff onto something to make it 'complex' just smacks of bad game design.
Just to to clarify: that's not what we've tried to do here, we're about depth.


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Labcown

Senior Member

01-22-2013

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Let me ask you this: are you guys generally fans of complexity as a mechanic (definitely a player archetype I fall into)? Do you think there's a possibility you might be confusing depth and gameplay distinction/strategic diversity? I think League actually has a good amount of depth overall, though I don't feel all of our characters are, as you said, as awesome as they could be - you're correct in bringing up the Darius example here as representative of this issue.

I also apologize if I've come off as a tough nut to crack - that's likely me ineffectively communicating in some way. My attitude on the matter is much more lenient than I think I represent, but I think I get frustrated by emotional arguments too easily. Food for thought for me when writing.
I certainly believe that a certain level of complexity is needed to keep a champion interesting, this is where Fiddlesticks, Annie (Even though I love the heck out of her), and several of the older champions fall short.

Certainly you can have too much complexity, but Riot has done a great job of avoiding adding arbitrary mechanics to their champions, and thus there is no real example of the opposite extreme as it is. The closet example I can think of would be champions like Lee Sin, Cassiopeia, and Thresh. In all of those examples, their added complexity/depth brings out greater potential and thus actually makes that champion more rewarding for the added difficulty.


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Morphine

Senior Member

01-22-2013

I love mechanical complexity and having a huge bag of tricks that you can really use to adapt to a given situation (Orianna and Lulu will always be two of my favorites for this reason), but I think simple design can also feel really fun to play if it fits the character. One person's opinion here, but in my experience, cohesion between a character's 'feel' and their kit can add a massive amount of value to how fun that character is to play.

I play a lot of Diana, and she feels like a good example of a mechanically simple character who fits her theme perfectly. She's an AP bruiser/assassin. She has a unidirectional gapcloser (no leap strike, no shunpo). She doesn't have any other significant mobility, no huge MS buff or stealth or other trickery that so many other assassins rely upon to get out after a kill. But her character makes that feel 'right. She's vengeful and feels betrayed and wants to complete her goal at any cost. She goes into a fight ready to cause as much destruction as possible, knowing she probably won't make it out. She 'sells' the kit.

Even as someone who largely likes more complex mechanics, I bought Diana because she feels cohesive. She feels like she mechanically sells her story, and that feels really good to play. I did not buy Syndra because she feels (I know this word is overused, but I really feel like it fits here) generic. I normally would not like Diana's mechanics in isolation, and I normally would like Syndra's. Diana feels like a character. Syndra feels like a kit with visuals tacked on. I hope that makes some amount of sense.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiBelgarath View Post
Its a familiar problem with the Runeterra framework, one we've seen before. The squality of your characters consistently depends on how good the story is of the character- the better you shape your character, the more clearly a theme emerges, and the better the mechanics are. Draaaaaaven is a perfect example of this- great story, built into great mechanics, created a fun character. Syndra had a pretty dismal story, her mechanics are even fairly interesting but have no real substance. You don't play Syndra and feel like...Syndra, you feel like just another mage. Your design process has a clear role playing aspect, which is good- it differentiates it, makes it interesting.

A lot of champions I think have this problem of insufficient clarity of character- Void champions are a great place to look. For example, Cho'gath and Kog'maw, where I half feel like you had the vague idea "let's make a void monster that eats things" and didn't feel like you got it right the first time, so you tried again. But since Void monsters are all mysterious with little clear purpose and such, the abilities are similarly unclear- why is Cho'gath randomly manipulating physics to knock people into the air, and why does Kog not actually eat people, given that his lore specifically talks about him consuming whole villages. Instead he just spits at everything.

In general, I think that the design process would go more smoothly if theme was more clearly discussed- create a set of characteristics and behaviorism for the creature without worrying about the actual QWER abilities, and then once you have created a functional and interesting being, then translate the most significant of those traits into the abilities.
Thank you, this is entirely what we have been trying to say, especially in our third thread concerning the topic of 'champions over-all' (the OP here is just a summary of all of our threads/points)

In our opinion, Riot should've come up with thematic elements of a theme converting them into abilities, whereas right now a lot of champions's behaviour/abilities have little relevance to their theme/appearance, Anivia would be a good example of that.

Her abilities aren't really bird or phoenix like, except for her passive, the rest of her abilities: you wouldn't expect a bird to be doing this, if anything these abilities would fit better on a random wizard specialized in the arts of ice/frost magic. (Random ice plopping out of the blue).

That's not a themetic unified champion, in our opinion (and pretty much approved of riot now by morello as he says he'll be really focusing on that this year) something that waters down the expierence of the ultimate 'ice bird' champion, as she's nothing really like that, except her appearance as an ice bird.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEnygma View Post
I think LoL needs to go into like "2.0 mode". The engine is maybe a tad outdated and there's stuff you guys have even said you literally can't do or do properly because of technical limitations whereas in other games, you have ones that use day/night cycles, pet champions, more than 4 abilities with a kit that makes sense etc. Not belittling or naysaying but I feel there's only so far you can go with champion abilities where it either makes sense and has good gameplay (I love Zyra's plants for eg) but then others are just simply a neat idea but ultimately become gimmicky or at the very least unique onto itself but no more than that. Example there I guess is Draven's axe catching.
To be fair, dude, while the engine might be extremely outdated for a lot of the Redesign ItemsGuy has made - every redesign including secondary controllable units would perfectly fit in League right now.

Karthus, Yorick, Annie, all work with Alt-Commands. Super hardcore micro-managing characters are pretty much toxic because they take the fun out of a champion, as the skill-floor is increased by tons, this is why a lot of abilities will automatically assist helping you to micro-manage these units.

Real RTS micro-managing where you would have a 'drag field' with your mouse like in DotA or in RTS games should never be happening in League, as it really screws over the accesability of a character. A good example of that would be Meepo in DotA, people barely play him. He might be fun and all if you get the hang of him, but his learning curve is so steep nobody really buys into him except for a few.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Worlds Smu Giest View Post
Lore is something I personally would like to see more of to tie champions to the league, who are they, why are they here, what are they trying to accomplish being here, what rewards are given to them for service.

Why do champions like Karthus, Syndra, or Elise feel the need to be in the league, while some are compelled others are free. Just some thinking.

Kit design, and mechanics are generally very simple or similar to each other in every champion, this person has stuns, this one is hard to kill, this one kills everyone(Riven, Darius, etc etc), This one will execute you if you are low health.

The fundamental mechanics are all very similar to each other just in different forms and styles, some champions exceed in their combinations others have a bit more of a price to pay or skill needed to use them effectively(Lee Sin).

I'd like to see more champions like Riven and katarina, cause they are fun to play. I'd like to see some new champion styles as well for example: There is no champion in league with a directional single target silence, Two champions with repositioning Hook mechanics(three with thresh), Nami and Cho'Gath are the only champions with a aoe targeting knock up, There are I believe 3-4 champions with escalating damage based on minion slaying(Nasus, Sion, Ryze, and not sure of any others), only 3 with minions(malzahar, elise, heimerdinger, and syndra doesn't count), and Global ultimates are fairly few in number but reasonable.

Alot of champions with newer mechanics have been introduced recently, kha'zix evolutions, jayce gates, Vi's on hit effects, Rengar's stacks , and syndra's balls. While other mechanics have been left alone for the most part.

I enjoy league, I will continue playing it until it no longer is entertaining.

On another note, Finish, your Skin themed lines more timely, we need more of the Crimson Elite.
No offense - but what you are doing right here would fall under 'giving the character these abilities for the sake of giving the character these abilities' argument.

Sure you can come up with extremely cool and unique mechanics, but in order to presume a stable game these mechanics have to be readable, therefore relevant to appearance of the character and the theme.

I realize I will be stepping on peoples toes when saying this, but I feel entitled to do so: Kha'Zix evolutions - yeah. Is it any relevant to his appearance ? Not at all, it's needlessly added. People looking at his splash art or recoqnizing the 'alien' inspiration will not he'll be having these evolution mechanics.

Sure it's all stated in his lore that he's pretty much all about adapting and evolution yet that would require people to read the lore of these champions first before they understand the reasoning behind the mechanics, wich would be Burden of Knowledge as you are giving people homework before they can enjoy themselves.

So yeah, sure - new interesting mechanics are great, but if it doesn't fit with a theme or character it really has to go.


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Kchaosrei

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Senior Member

01-22-2013

read through the OP. alot of his what stated is personal opinion and cherry picked comments over months/years of the forums.

The prefect example is the darus section. I don't agree with anything said there and CertainT is not going to say his champion is broken. I know for a fact that several Pro teams think/said he is broken used the CORRECT way.

While "NEW" champion creation will eventually die out. But who is to say what the champ limit is with creative people. It could be 500 champs its up to riot to find the creative people and the programmers to make this a possibility

Again this OP is personal opinion and while it may be shared or or convinced others, this doesn't mean he is right.


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Fomorian27

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Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Let me ask you this: are you guys generally fans of complexity as a mechanic (definitely a player archetype I fall into)? Do you think there's a possibility you might be confusing depth and gameplay distinction/strategic diversity? I think League actually has a good amount of depth overall, though I don't feel all of our characters are, as you said, as awesome as they could be - you're correct in bringing up the Darius example here as representative of this issue.
I definitely think there's more depth and counterplay in lol than in dota. karthus ult vs is zeus is the perfect example. There are so many ways to counter karthus ult: stun or silence him during channel, buy zonyas or any mr item, pick a champ that has an untargetable spell (fizz, shaco, vlad, elise), sorakas wish, any heal or lifesteal, and even chugging a red pot. Of these, basically the only one that would work against zeus is healing or lifestealing up once you get low. zeus has no channel time, so stunning or silencing him isn't a counter. It's instantaneous, so a clutch invuln or magic immunity isn't a counter.