Melee Carries: Lessons from DotA

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Great Owl

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zahaele View Post
One of the problems that makes ranged carries more effective than melee carries is that the ranged carries are the ones with escapes. Corki, Graves, Ez, Vayne to an extent, Cait, Tristana, etc.

Master Yi? No escapes outside of ult.
Trynd? One escape which has been nerfed multiple times.
Fiora? No escapes unless there's a creep nearby, just a tool to drop aggro.
While this is sort of valid, if they had escapes, they would just be played as bad assassins. Escapes don't help them do consistent damage.


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Lothloran

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Merc. Scimitar, removes debuffs and stuns. Move along folks


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7thHeaven

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lothloran View Post
Merc. Scimitar, removes debuffs and stuns. Move along folks
And ADC wont buy Merc


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princebelair

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardamominal View Post
Thank you, and you are most certainly right. The bruiser's inherent tankiness through their build path is somewhat more akin to a fed Riki (Who can tank towers at full build). However, melee carries in DotA in fact get higher damage output than melee carries in League do with respect to how much defense they actually receive.



One word with regards to PA: blur.

If 50% evasion combined with 35% from a butterfly isn't tanky, I don't know what is.

Her ability to be completely mitigated with a Monkey King Bar to get past her blur, however, is the exact reason she is never used competitively compared to safer choices such as Sven (Who in recent times was buffed into a carry due to how Great Cleave works now) or Yurnero.

The sole building of armor just to "not get blown up" as you put it, would be the definition of being tanky, and is the sole reason tankiness exists in the first place.
PA's blur does NOT stack with Butterfly. If she were to carry late game she would have to build BKB and, depending on the enemy team comp, a heart or something. She would melt late game otherwise. A PA who builds glass cannon is not a good player, unless she's completely out of control fed.

Glass Cannon does not really exist in Dota, unless you're Yaphets playing SF and going 20-0 in 10 minutes.

In Dota, Melee Carries are viable because of more defensive options, that are there because of the higher amount of CC effects.

In Lol, there is less CC all around, and thus late game carry items like Butterfly could not exist - it would be hugely OP in League.


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zliplus

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Senior Member

01-17-2013

You don't see many glass cannon Olafs around either.


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LEEROY JEEENKINS

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7thHeaven View Post
Do you know butterfly doesnt stack with Blur ?
That's reason for no1 buy it for her
In previous times, no, it did not. It does, however, now in Dota 2.

And even when it did not, a satanic + coup de grace gave her enough lifesteal to live with just 50%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiffmeisterZ
They gave us Mercurial for them and you can take cleanse on top of it...?

If you make anything too strong for melee carries, you risk everyone else and their mother buying it up and breaking the game when everyone is Olaf.
Mercurial and Cleanse are no match for chain CC.

You can even restrict it to only a few champions, as proven with the sole fact hexcore and bonetooth necklace exist for Viktor and Rengar.


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Felaedor

Senior Member

01-17-2013

There are a bunch of things, but honestly the primary differences that could allow them to be viable even in League isn't so much late game.

Lack of an equivalent to a melee favoring Stout Shield or even better Poor Man's Shield, Runes and Masteries to cover up last hitting deficiencies from low base damage on ranged, and shorter initial tower to tower distance as well as no suicide/safe lane dichotomy ALL favor ranged OF ALL TYPES, not just carries in the laning phase alone.

EDIT: The other early game thing I completely forgot. MUCH wider range of base movement speeds in DotA, with Ranged tending to be on the lower end, and melee being the higher end. There are obviously exceptions like Luna, but her range is really short anyway. Also, Max MS.

Shift in to mid game with the increasing farm curve in the jungle that Ranged Carries tend to lack the mobility or AoE to utilize (obvious exceptions, but generally speaking) instead of the LoL static "jungler can get everything always" version, as well as Vanguard being freaking incredible, and Vlad's not giving lifesteal to ranged.

And then you go late game where you use that increasing farm curve to pick up levels that DOUBLE your normal HP/Armor per level growth.

Some of that would need to get fixed before melee carries could have a hope of filling a similar role.

Make any 3 or 4 of those things more like DotA, and you'd see more viable melee carries.

And look at me. I didn't even need to use the term BKB or reintroduce CC immunity.


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7thHeaven

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Felaedor View Post
There are a bunch of things, but honestly the primary difference that could allow them to be viable even in League isn't even so much late game.

Lack of an equivalent to a melee favoring Stout Shield or even better Poor Man's Shield, Runes and Masteries to cover up last hitting deficiencies from low base damage on ranged, and shorter initial tower to tower distance ALL favor ranged in the laning phase alone.

Some of that would need to get fixed before melee carries could have a hope of filling a similar role.
Poor Man's Shield ?
Dont we got doran's shield - the downgrade version ?


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Felaedor

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7thHeaven View Post
Poor Man's Shield ?
Dont we got doran's shield - the downgrade version ?
Doran's Shield is melee/ranged equivalent that has such low damage block that it's overridden entirely by runes/masteries.

It's so poor, the Poor Man died of starvation.


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Private Riem

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lothloran View Post
Merc. Scimitar, removes debuffs and stuns. Move along folks
Merc is too stupidly expensive to be worth buying over anything else.


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