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Melee Carries: Lessons from DotA

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Cyning

Senior Member

01-17-2013

In DotA, the vast majority of carries available in the game are melee, agility carries. Whether it be Yurnero, Darkterror, Sylla, Riki, etc.

Now, in league, there used to be more melee than ranged carries, but things have changed a great deal since then. The only melee carries left are Tryndamere, Gangplank, Master Yi, Jax, and Fiora. Fiora is probably the only really viable one in a normal glass cannon state, while Tryndamere and Jax are the only ones being a glass cannon really works for. Gangplank is a bruiser at this point, and Yi is most often played as a mage.

However similar the games are, however, what is the cause for this huge disparity in the success of hard melee carries in dota yet their abysmal failure in league? Well, there are two reasons for this disparity.

1) Crowd Control Effects

Crowd control is meant as a way to peel people off your carry, initiate fights, prevent escapes, and close gaps. However, for melee carries in league it's nearly certain death. Hard CC offers little counter play in this game as opposed to DotA, where a number of abilities and one particular item, the Black King Bar, or BKB as it will be noted as here on throughout, grant magic immunity, which includes immunity from most stuns.

Thus, it is impossible for a melee carry to ever be truly viable in league of legends without a way to mitigate crowd control effects for a long enough time to gain a large amount of effective HP through lifesteal, as Yurnero does when buying a BKB and Vlad's.

But Cardamominal, I thought you said Fiora and Jax were viable melee carries?

Indeed I did. The reason is because of their effective HP granted by either Fiora's passive sustain and riposte, and Jax's grandmaster's might's armor and magic resistance. Tryndamere is close to viable because his ultimate grants him an unlimited amount of effective HP for 5 seconds. However, the reason he really isn't is because he can be stunned through the entire duration by chaining CC. The same honestly goes for Fiora, or even Jax if he's stunned before he can activate grandmaster's might.

But how can we solve this problem in League?

The solution is really quite simple and is just one of two solutions I offer. To reintroduce CC immunity via either an item or summoner spell. Now, this wouldn't necessarily make melee carries overpowered, either, as anyone could buy CC immunity. Be it ranged carries, which would greatly improve their kiting, or melee carries who desperately need the survivability without having to be turned into a Hard CC-less sup-par bruiser.

2) In DotA there is no such thing as a glass cannon

For DotA players reading this, you may all realize that agility carries passively gain damage for each point and armor for each 7 points of agility, and that strength carries passively gain health and damage for building more strength. This is why Jax is able to build a glass cannon when he activates grandmaster's might in a fight; he takes no penalty for building glass cannon.

But how can we do this in League when we don't have a 3 tier stat system?

This one is a bit complicated, but the way to solve this would be to give all melee carries a passive on one of their abilities, or even ultimates, where they gain armor and health for x points of attack damage. This would allow them to have more survivability in fights, but still make them just as vulnerable to CC and DPS/Health cleave as any other carry. This could be done in addition to adding magic immunity (please no), or done all on it's own.

But Cardamominal, what about ranged carries?

Ranged carries in this game are given honestly too much slack. They often times have higher effective damage output (They are less prone to crowd control through positioning, and thus, while having lower base damages and hp, get more damage out in a teamfight than a competing melee carry), lower risk gameplay, and higher reward for their lower risk. They can easily mitigate CC by their positioning and are honestly this game's easy button, given that on top of their mobility, they can also melt an entire enemy team through ultimates and auto attacks. To be completely fair, ranged carries are more or less an overpowered class. Any class that regularly picks up pentas compared to other classes at any stage of the game, would be nerfed into the ground. Ranged carries on the other hand, have not been.

And yes, I'm aware melee carries are not something Morello likes. I can understand why, they could be incredibly pubstompy and insanely difficult to balance. However, I would just like to get the point across that there are non-game breaking ways (my second option stated above) to get them into working order competitively. Not only that, but many of us really truly like the idea of running around with a sword and dealing tons of damage like our ranged counterparts while not having to essentially be a damage sponge.


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Voidgolem

Senior Member

01-17-2013

we had melee CC immunity once, long ago.

That was where the term "Windamere" came from.

Frankly I do miss it. Little sick of having to build tanky on bruisers just to not be the first guy to die in fights :S


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Calibretto9

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Good post. I like the "no glass cannons" option. Getting blown up in the blink of an eye isn't fun no matter what class you're playing.


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princebelair

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Nice post, but you're forgetting that Dota and LoL play out completely different, you cant compare them.

If you go top lane with Jax, Irelia, or whoever, you are basically the equivalent of a Dota 'Carry'.

Dota melee carries have to get a mix of offensive and defensive items, unless they are highly durable carries. EVEN THEN, with the most durable carries, 95% of the time you will see them build defensive items like Linkens, Vanguard, Heart, etc.

--

The difference between LoL and Dota is that Dota has way more CC effects. In League the current meta of glass cannon ranged ADC works because there is less CC compared to Dota and the majority of it can be avoided with Cleanse and QSS.


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tenrel

Senior Member

01-17-2013

no such thing as a glass cannon?

you are aware of the existence of PA?

the armor from agility isnt there to make them tanky, it is there to make them not instantly die.

also a great amount of dota's melee carries would be completely useless were it not for black king bar.


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SpiffmeisterZ

Senior Member

01-17-2013

They gave us Mercurial for them and you can take cleanse on top of it...?

If you make anything too strong for melee carries, you risk everyone else and their mother buying it up and breaking the game when everyone is Olaf.


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Zahaele

Member

01-17-2013

One of the problems that makes ranged carries more effective than melee carries is that the ranged carries are the ones with escapes. Corki, Graves, Ez, Vayne to an extent, Cait, Tristana, etc.

Master Yi? No escapes outside of ult.
Trynd? One escape which has been nerfed multiple times.
Fiora? No escapes unless there's a creep nearby, just a tool to drop aggro.

In DotA ranged carries have hardly any escapes and are some of the squishiest units. Sniper and Drow in particular suffer from "enemy is right next to me, I'm almost guaranteed to die" syndrome.

Melee carries take RISKS by getting into melee range. That's why they have the escapes and not the ranged ones.


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TerminatusOmega

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Rengar was once considered Melee ADC of sorts...due to the amount of damage he would incur on people but everyone said he was OP- which he sorta was.

tbh i don't even know what he is considered anymore.


i kinda think that melee carries should be more mobile and have stealth options, yet glass cannon


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Cyning

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Quote:
princebelair:
Nice post, but you're forgetting that Dota and LoL play out completely different, you cant compare them.

If you go top lane with Jax, Irelia, or whoever, you are basically the equivalent of a Dota 'Carry'.

Dota melee carries have to get a mix of offensive and defensive items, unless they are highly durable carries. EVEN THEN, with the most durable carries, 95% of the time you will see them build defensive items like Linkens, Vanguard, Heart, etc.


Thank you, and you are most certainly right. The bruiser's inherent tankiness through their build path is somewhat more akin to a fed Riki (Who can tank towers at full build). However, melee carries in DotA in fact get higher damage output than melee carries in League do with respect to how much defense they actually receive.

Quote:
tenrel:

no such thing as a glass cannon?

you are aware of the existence of PA?

the armor from agility isnt there to make them tanky, it is there to make them not instantly die.


One word with regards to PA: blur.

If 50% evasion combined with 35% from a butterfly isn't tanky, I don't know what is.

Her ability to be completely mitigated with a Monkey King Bar to get past her blur, however, is the exact reason she is never used competitively compared to safer choices such as Sven (Who in recent times was buffed into a carry due to how Great Cleave works now) or Yurnero.

The sole building of armor just to "not get blown up" as you put it, would be the definition of being tanky, and is the sole reason tankiness exists in the first place.


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7thHeaven

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Quote:
Cardamominal:
Thank you, and you are most certainly right. The bruiser's inherent tankiness through their build path is somewhat more akin to a fed Riki (Who can tank towers at full build). However, melee carries in DotA in fact get higher damage output than melee carries in League do with respect to how much defense they actually receive.



One word with regards to PA: blur.

If 50% evasion combined with 35% from a butterfly isn't tanky, I don't know what is.

Her ability to be completely mitigated with a Monkey King Bar to get past her blur, however, is the exact reason she is never used competitively compared to safer choices such as Sven (Who in recent times was buffed into a carry due to how Great Cleave works now) or Yurnero.

The sole building of armor just to "not get blown up" as you put it, would be the definition of being tanky, and is the sole reason tankiness exists in the first place.


Do you know butterfly doesnt stack with Blur ?
That's reason for no1 buy it for her