Draft Pick Discussion - Bans

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New Gamerleans

Senior Member

02-01-2013

We are all fairly aware that Proving Grounds has more than 6 completely ridiculous champions.

After this ARAM tournament is over, I'm going to hold weekly events, one of which will be 5v5 All Draft All Mid. I was curious for your feedback. Do you feel that 6 bans is appropriate or should I extend the ban list?

One idea I was mulling over was:

- 6 standard Draft Pick bans (3 for each team)
- 2 or 3 additional bans that both teams vote on during lobby.

I realize there are some pros and cons to this idea, hence why I'm asking for your input.

Thank you in advance for your participation in this thread!


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Zarkof

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Senior Member

02-01-2013

Since the "S Tier" for Proving Grounds is so large, increasing the bans to 8 or 10 total might help get rid of all the OP people and champs that people can't play against.

Zileas talked about increasing bans in ranked and provided very good material on the issue:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
this post
I feel it is relevant material to this post and should help massively with the discussion here.


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Warm Gun

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Glad to see someone finally woke up and realized how absurd the concept of random champions is. <<<<(wild assumption)

I'll add you in game. I know lots of people who would be thrilled to hear about this.

-Not sure how I feel about 10-12 total bans

---8 should be enough.

---10 is pushing it.

---12 is absurd in my opinion; the reason being, the same 8-10 champions would never get played: Jayce, Lux, Sona, Thresh, Cait, Ez, Yi, Kat, Soraka, Nid. Forgot fiddle xD (My opinion on this could change, I've been playing with 4-6 bans for over 2 years) UPDATE:: I feel after testing this system 10-12 bans is not so unreasonable.

-One option would be to have an Admin randomly select a team to chose the number of extra bans, or the highest seeded team gets to decide. (1-3)

---The following game, the other team would then select the number of extra bans per team.

-Either way I would like to actively participate in this both as a player and as a promoter. I have been playing ADAM since early season 1 with a large group of players. I have easily played 1k + ADAM games, and can honestly say that not many people have as much of an understanding of ARAM/ADAM as I do.

-Also, I know at least 10+ active ADAM players who play anywhere from 10-50 games of ADAM a week, so we will have no shortage of participants.

Good thread +1


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GrosPigeon

Senior Member

02-05-2013

You are absolutely right that ADAM needs additional bans, I have been playing draft as well for 2+ years and lots of champions are beyond broken and need to be banned.

Alistar, Jayce, Nid, Yi, Kat, Lux, Fiddles, Soraka, Sona, Taric, Varus, Heimerdinger, Janna

Most of these champions are overpowerered and leave almost no room for counterplay in Proving grounds.

I like the idea of having additional bans in the lobby. However, some testing needs to be done in order to know which amount is best.


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New Gamerleans

Senior Member

02-06-2013

I really like the input so far gents.

Please keep it coming as this is gradually helping me come to a conclusion on how to approach the issues of fair bans for organized, competitive Proving Grounds gameplay.


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Shjade Nexayre

Senior Member

02-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrosPigeon View Post
You are absolutely right that ADAM needs additional bans, I have been playing draft as well for 2+ years and lots of champions are beyond broken and need to be banned.

Fiddles, Varus, Janna
Those three are good, but there's certainly "counterplay" for them, Varus most of all. I mean, heck, Jayce is more painful to have against you than Varus: his poke's faster, it hits harder without needing stacks and does full damage to all targets hit, and he can still get meaty and dig into teamfights instead of blowing up instantly.

Janna and Fid I'd call borderline cases at worst. Some of the others on your list have dramatically more or less impact depending on the rest of their lineup, but they're definitely harder to answer.

Still, the point's solid that there are more than 6 "must ban" champs for all-mid games...though not everyone plays all those champs very well. Sooo many fail Luxes I've seen miss every laser all game long...*sigh* Sorry, getting sidetracked. I think 8 would probably be enough to cover the usual suspects for "let's just not involve these in the game at all." More than that is just overkill. I mean, you can't just remove EVERYTHING that's strong.


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HaIfhearted

Senior Member

02-09-2013

While most of you probably haven't heard of nor care about it, the weekly DominateDominion tournament has been using a 10-bans format for several months now, and it really increases champion diversity and makes the game a lot more balanced.

10 bans also gives you room to have 1-2 targeted bans, while not being overbearing to the point of being able to just completely shut out a single player (unless the player has a small champion pool that they can play, but then they deserved it)

Given that ARAM has a similar number of ops to Dom, I think that switching to a 10-bans format would be a good idea for any ARAM draft tourney.


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Sorne

Member

02-09-2013

ADAM definitely needs a few more bans. Considering that there are 110 champions, it's not as if bans are going to be overly limiting on your choices. "Oh no! 12 bans? I only have 98 champs to choose from now!"

Another option, occasionally employed by some ADAM hosts, to consider, instead just upping the amount of bans, is to have a pre-ban set in place. Generally this list will look something like sona, soraka, jayce, blitz, yi, nid, lux. With these annoying champs already out of the way, it gives both sides the option to ban who they personally don't like.

The advantage of upping the ban count is that both teams get a lot more influence on potential team compositions. The disadvantage is that it gives one team the option to throw away all their bans on low tier champs in order to try to flood the match with high tier ones.

The advantage of a pre-ban is that the above instance will not happen. The disadvantage is that it may be hard to compile a list that everyone could agree on (for instance, I think Nid is weak against decent players and only works well at crushing nooblords that can't dodge spears), and perma-banning a champ means that all strategies in which that champ is a key member get voided.

Personally, I think that 12 (or even 14) bans is not excessive and gives teams lots of breathing room and strategic options.

Good work, and +1 for ADAM!


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New Gamerleans

Senior Member

02-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorne View Post
ADAM definitely needs a few more bans. Considering that there are 110 champions, it's not as if bans are going to be overly limiting on your choices. "Oh no! 12 bans? I only have 98 champs to choose from now!"
I am so glad somebody took the couple seconds to consider this math. I always feel crucified when I bring up this point in conversation!

edit: Please keep the advice and discussions flowing guys! This is really helping me on reaching a decision for this coming Friday's ADAM event.


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GrosPigeon

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shjade Nexayre View Post
Those three are good, but there's certainly "counterplay" for them, Varus most of all. I mean, heck, Jayce is more painful to have against you than Varus: his poke's faster, it hits harder without needing stacks and does full damage to all targets hit, and he can still get meaty and dig into teamfights instead of blowing up instantly.

Janna and Fid I'd call borderline cases at worst. Some of the others on your list have dramatically more or less impact depending on the rest of their lineup, but they're definitely harder to answer.
Well you can't push against AP Janna. Nothing else to say really.

Varus doesn't poke as well as Jayce but offers better waveclear, also his damage is more sustained than Jayce late game because he has an AS steroid.

Fiddles can just E someone randomly and silence everyone because of the bounces, he has a 3s fear and his ult is a game changer that he can use from a bush and wombo combo with any other aoe ult. Those are the big lines why those champs are "OP".


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