Elo hell

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TheRealBOBDOLE

Member

01-17-2013

AD Bottom, you are absolutely wrong.

Elo is a terrible system to judge your skill, because IT DOESN'T JUDGE YOUR SKILL. Riot has stated this themselves. All it does is detect whether or not you won. It does nothing else. Which means it doesn't take into account any skill. at all. Ever.

And thats the problem. Riot doesn't use a skill based ranking system. They have already stated that it isn't a rating of "skill". it's completely based on win or lose, and it doesn't care who's fault the win or loss is.

This means (and they have admitted this too) if you get into a game, leave your computer and don't come back for 3 hours, and your team ended up somehow winning, YOU STILL GO UP. if that isn't a clear and GLARING flaw in the system, what the heck on earth is?

In fact they stated that even if you DISCONNECT from the game, you go up if your team wins. This is the very definition of a broken system, and in all the posts in all the threads, not one person has been able to prove otherwise. They simply go on about how "hard" a different system would be to make.

I would really like to watch someone justify having a system that rewards crappy players, quitters, feeders, trolls, all based on a skilled players hard work and dedication. When i see any proof at all, even a little, that Elo is a smart choice for a team game, then maybe you'll have a valid argument. But i have yet to see one.

In fact, i challenge anyone at all, to prove that the current Elo system is good for a team game like league of legends. Using math, examples, logic, and/or hypothetical situations. Go ahead and prove me wrong, because then id enjoy myself more.


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GunflameSmurf

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Senior Member

01-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRealBOBDOLE View Post
In fact, i challenge anyone at all, to prove that the current Elo system is good for a team game like league of legends. Using math, examples, logic, and/or hypothetical situations. Go ahead and prove me wrong, because then id enjoy myself more.
I challenge you to prove that the Elo system is BAD for this game.


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adc

Member

01-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRealBOBDOLE View Post
AD Bottom, you are absolutely wrong.

Elo is a terrible system to judge your skill, because IT DOESN'T JUDGE YOUR SKILL. Riot has stated this themselves. All it does is detect whether or not you won. It does nothing else. Which means it doesn't take into account any skill. at all. Ever.

And thats the problem. Riot doesn't use a skill based ranking system. They have already stated that it isn't a rating of "skill". it's completely based on win or lose, and it doesn't care who's fault the win or loss is.

This means (and they have admitted this too) if you get into a game, leave your computer and don't come back for 3 hours, and your team ended up somehow winning, YOU STILL GO UP. if that isn't a clear and GLARING flaw in the system, what the heck on earth is?

In fact they stated that even if you DISCONNECT from the game, you go up if your team wins. This is the very definition of a broken system, and in all the posts in all the threads, not one person has been able to prove otherwise. They simply go on about how "hard" a different system would be to make.

I would really like to watch someone justify having a system that rewards crappy players, quitters, feeders, trolls, all based on a skilled players hard work and dedication. When i see any proof at all, even a little, that Elo is a smart choice for a team game, then maybe you'll have a valid argument. But i have yet to see one.

In fact, i challenge anyone at all, to prove that the current Elo system is good for a team game like league of legends. Using math, examples, logic, and/or hypothetical situations. Go ahead and prove me wrong, because then id enjoy myself more.
First, I'd love to see sources for all of those things.

Riot is using a skill based system in that winning requires more skill than the opponent. By winning the game, you've proven that (in general) you have more skill than the opposing team in some way. Yes, there will be games that you lose because your team is bad, or you get a troll on your team. But remember - assuming you aren't a troll yourself - the enemy team is more likely to get a troll than you are.

You can say "oh, but i played 5 games and im only 1300 Elo when I'm 1700 on another account! #elohell #roitpls" but that's not a proper sample size. IF you're a 1700 player, legitimately, over 100-200 games you'll rise there. It may take more, it may take less - but the odds of you staying at 1300 Elo are almost impossibly slim.

And again - I invite you to create a system for Riot which would effectively and efficiently judge every little thing every player does in every single game. I would bet you they would use it if it worked properly. The problem is, it would be so time consuming and money hungry to even scratch the surface of that it just isn't worth it. The Elo system has it's flaws, sure, but over a large sample size of games, the chances of someone being significantly far from the Elo they belong at are very small.

Quote:
if that isn't a clear and GLARING flaw in the system, what the heck on earth is?
Just wanted to address this on it's own. Yes, a DC'd player can gain Elo. A troll can gain Elo for being carried. So can a baddy. But what are the chances that a DCer, or a troll, or a baddy will win the majority of their games? They'll go up one game, maybe two if they're lucky, and drop right back down.


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eLeeTeR

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Senior Member

01-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by AD Bottom View Post
Well, technically, by definition there HAS to be someone who is better than everyone else. But I digress.

Ok so, you're better than the people you're paired up with - because of how the game ends? But there are times when it's your fault. I don't follow. You're saying you're better than the people you play with, and they tell you that, but you can't win games?

For the record, League is about winning, not about doing some other thing well. I can play AP Yi and go 50/0 mid. If I lose that game, it's not because of "Elo hell", but rather because my skills were inferior and the enemy team did something better than our team and won for it.
this kid is making me laugh... But I digress.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

01-17-2013

There are skills other than CS and K/D/A that are involved in winning matches. There are skills that don't show up on the scorecard in any recordable fashion whatsoever that lead to winning matches.

Heck, something as simple as choosing the right lane to push after you killed four of their team can mean the difference between winning or losing the match. That single decision could be the deciding factor in the match. How's a system going to determine whether or not my ability to choose the right lane to push is good enough?


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eLeeTeR

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Senior Member

01-17-2013

pogo has a point

just because you can cs well and ks here and there and run away doesnt mean youre good...

but hey elo is elo

why do some people go 11-0 in ranked and have 1850 elo and others go 15-0 and are 1650 elo...

silly game

BUT I LOVE IT!!!


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adc

Member

01-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by eLeeTeR View Post
pogo has a point

just because you can cs well and ks here and there and run away doesnt mean youre good...

but hey elo is elo

why do some people go 11-0 in ranked and have 1850 elo and others go 15-0 and are 1650 elo...

silly game

BUT I LOVE IT!!!
Because there was a soft rating reset, that's why. The 11-0 player who is now 1850 probably started at 1600 Elo, whereas the 15-0 player probably started at 1200-1300.


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eLeeTeR

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Senior Member

01-17-2013

I digress


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TheRealBOBDOLE

Member

01-17-2013

You are all making my point, and I'm not sure how you don't see it. You have all agreed that LoL is a team game based on a vast amount of small things. So why judge on one thing, that can be wrong.

It is not a SKILL based system. There is no way to detect individual skill in whether a team won or lost. This is why it makes sense for a SOLO game like chess, but not a TEAM game.

Your argument that it is rare that someone would have trolls or that over enough games they would go up is just false. Or, rather, can be false.

The point is, it is entirely possible that someone that is good could get bad teammates EVERY SINGLE GAME. This doesn't happen to me, but it IS possible. And with the way Elo works now, and with the way the placement matches work now, it is EASY for this to happen.

Think about what you're saying in your posts. basically: "League of Legends is based on millions of little things that each person does and doesn't do, so it's a good idea to base their rank off of ONE thing."

This does not make good sense.

Also, I have already proven it is a bad system, by providing examples of very legitimate situations that are entirely plausible. No one has denied that it is possible, or provided a counter argument that proves that it is a good system.

Winning a game in a team based game does not PROVE anything about any of the team members individually. I will go as far as to say that it is physically IMPOSSIBLE to detect individual skill from a binary system in a team game. It CANNOT be done. It is mathematically impossible.

1 win does not equal 5 good teammates any more than 1 win equals 5 bad enemies. For your example of "if you won, you've proven your somehow better", i have this to say:

Prove it. Show me the data that proves that everyone on the winning team was better than everyone on the losing team.

You can't. Because all the game says is that one lost, and the other won. It provides no estimation, evaluation, or detection of any skillset, talent, work, progress or ability. NONE. Therefore, the system does not rank players based on SKILL. And you cannot prove that it does.


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Mothalius

Senior Member

01-17-2013

I wonder what Arpad Elo would say if asked does Elo work in a team game.