Elo hell

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Enconex

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
Trust me, we understand what you guys call Elo hell. We just don't think it exists.
Edited the end, for you.


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adc

Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enconex View Post
Edited the end, for you.
If you're "in no doubt that I am better than the players I am playing with", why do you not gain Elo? Surely if you were a better player, you would slowly go up in Elo as your increased skill showed? I never said it's "always your fault you lose". I'll freely admit that some games are just out of your control. But there is always something better you can be doing, unless you're the best player in the world. If you're truly a better player, you'll go up. If you're not MUCH better, it will be a slow climb - but then, you aren't going for.


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Enconex

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
If you're "in no doubt that I am better than the players I am playing with", why do you not gain Elo? Surely if you were a better player, you would slowly go up in Elo as your increased skill showed? I never said it's "always your fault you lose". I'll freely admit that some games are just out of your control. But there is always something better you can be doing, unless you're the best player in the world. If you're truly a better player, you'll go up. If you're not MUCH better, it will be a slow climb - but then, you aren't going for.
I do gain elo, just very slowly because of all the games like the ones I stated in my post. I think I should be around the 1400 elo range and I realize there are things I can do in many of my Losses that could have changed the game to a win, but unless your a super high elo player you can't carry the games I have mentioned.


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Korean King

Recruiter

01-16-2013

Meh if you can't 1v5 as adc in 1k elo, you deserve to be there. In any elo there are bads. I personally think kids in 1500 elo are garbage, but if I lose, I know it was cause I wasn't able to carry hard enough and at the same time I am atleast somewhat satisfied the bads in my team lost the elo they deserve.


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TheRealBOBDOLE

Member

01-16-2013

I went ahead and read up on the Dunning–Kruger effect. Interesting stuff. Unfortunately, from what I read, they failed to do any experiments where the assessment tests were fundamentally flawed, to see what that did to the minds of either group (competent/incompetent).

Because of this, the effect can be a possibility, but is not automatically the culprit when someone believes they are better. The research done assumes that the assessments were 100% accurate, which is totally unprovable. The ones who were deemed "incompetent" could have been inaccurately labeled. For example, look at the United State's "standardized" testing. These assessments are grossly inaccurate for judging proficiency in almost every subject, and because of this, our education system is well behind other countries.

So, more to the point, Elo in a team game is a flawed idea at it's core. Which means there is no true way to tell whether someone is under the Dunning–Kruger effect, or if they are actually better.


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Bigrider

Junior Member

01-16-2013

lawl


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TheRealBOBDOLE

Member

01-16-2013

To respond to "AD Bottom"

If you are better, you will not necessarily go up, even if you are 100 times better. I'll explain:

With the current Elo system, one doesnt start at the bottom, then work up, or go down to 0 and stop. A new player starts based on placement games. They must be placed with SOMEONE, which means from the very beginning, someone is getting a new player. From there, this player could be carried to victory, and placed in the 1200-1400 Elo range, where he doesn't belong.

Now, if this only happened once, then there wouldnt be a problem. But when this happens over 100,000 times per season, you end up with multiple areas in Elo where you may very well be better, but continuously get the ones who are "on their way down". The system doesn't take into account your skill or ability. It only accounts for whether you win or lose, which means if you have bad luck, you could be stuck with bad teammates every single game. And i mean it is MATHEMATICALLY possible.

This would result in someone being unable to leave due to others. The simple fix is use an algorithm, instead of a binary system.


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adc

Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRealBOBDOLE View Post
To respond to "AD Bottom"

If you are better, you will not necessarily go up, even if you are 100 times better. I'll explain:

With the current Elo system, one doesnt start at the bottom, then work up, or go down to 0 and stop. A new player starts based on placement games. They must be placed with SOMEONE, which means from the very beginning, someone is getting a new player. From there, this player could be carried to victory, and placed in the 1200-1400 Elo range, where he doesn't belong.

Now, if this only happened once, then there wouldnt be a problem. But when this happens over 100,000 times per season, you end up with multiple areas in Elo where you may very well be better, but continuously get the ones who are "on their way down". The system doesn't take into account your skill or ability. It only accounts for whether you win or lose, which means if you have bad luck, you could be stuck with bad teammates every single game. And i mean it is MATHEMATICALLY possible.

This would result in someone being unable to leave due to others. The simple fix is use an algorithm, instead of a binary system.
There will be outliers, same with any other system. You'll have 1.5k players at 1.2k Elo, and vice versa. However, the vast majority of players will eventually (I'm not talking over 50 games - try 500, or a thousand) migrate to the Elo they should be at. The reason we tell people that they're not one of these outliers is because the odds of them being that outlier are so small, we can basically just assume they're not.

You write an algorithm for it, then. If you come up with a better system than Riot's Elo system (which is, by the way, different than the Elo system used for chess - Riot has said that recently), I'd be willing to bet they'd give you a cushy job and a good chunk of money for it.

However, an algorithm that could correctly and efficiently judge EVERY level of play would have a few problems. One, it would take a ridiculous amount of time and effort from both pro level players and Riot's programmers - and I mean an utterly massive amount of time. They would have to code in a way to handle EVERY single possible scenario. Which is silly and unattainable. Second, it would take a ridiculous amount of computer power to be able to process every game - like, more than we have available in the whole world right now, most likely.

And third, it would make what we do on the forums that much harder, because there would be a 25/0 Akali who never peeled for their ADC raging about how they won a game and lost 5 Elo.


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TheRealBOBDOLE

Member

01-16-2013

1. The outliers are not so few that its ok to not address the problem.

2. Other developers have written these algorithms, just like other developers have fixed a lot of things that riot doesn't seem to fix. They are slow and unwilling to change it seems.

3. It absolutely would NOT be too power consuming to make this system because the game already tracks EVERY number. It has to because thats how this game works. NUMBERS. So the framework has been established since day one, but instead of using it, they are taking the easy way out.

The fact that it already can detect a kill, an assist and compute damage done and received and healed and shielded and dodged, all for 10 separate champions at once all without skipping even ONE detail, means that the technology has been there from the start. All they would be doing is putting th information that the game ALREADY TRACKS, to better use.

And for your final comment: The system wouldn't punish someone if they went 25/0 and won. The system now doesn't do that even. What it does punish, is the one who went 25/0 did everything right, and was just unlucky enough to have 4 bad teammates. This is a much worse scenario than anything that would arise from an algorithm system.

If they are willing to take submissions for a new ranking system, i would be happy to develop it. I've actually already started a bit, and considered some things that would work much better. But thats not the way it works.

They are not going to spend money on changing a system that they believe to be working. And they seem unwilling to admit that there are extreme faults with their Elo system.


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NorthenWolf

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by AD Bottom View Post
How do you "know" you're better than they are? You should go read up on the dunning-kreuger effect.

Also, you shouldn't need to have MIAs called for you. They're a luxury, not a need. You should have wards on your lane that allow you to see people coming up or down to your lane. You then have map awareness and realize "oh my god they're coming for me!" and walk away.
why are you downvoting him, he is correct. nobody needs mia's why do you think there is a map. i always look at my map, i always know when a gank is coming, i hardly ever need wards. it isnt hard guys, try it sometimes.


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