Revive should been nerfed on dominion.

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FDru

Senior Member

01-16-2013

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Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
Well why would you focus the guy with Flash first if he's near walls? Or Cleanse if you rely on CC?
Stuns and silences counter Flash. Burst counters Cleanse. If you don't see anything wrong with "not killing the guy" as the counter to Revive, I don't know what to say other than "if the guys aren't dying, they're winning".

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Many of the non-Revive users are not support players, but they will often pick a champion with some form of escape or disengage. This is logical.
Yeah it does seem logical to not take Revive on champs that don't die. I kind of said that... sort of. You may have noticed that I rarely play champs with spammable blinks (or otherwise foolproof disengage mechanics) so I'm probably biased.

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It may surprise you, but a team with fewer Revives frequently wins because it has more utility.
It that really supposed to surprise me? It was the exact argument I used back when I never used Revive. That was until I started getting focused first in every fight regardless of what champ I was playing (or how tanky they were). There was no choice at that point than to join the herd.

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The correct response to killing a person in a teamfight that has Revive is pulling back in team positioning. Not moving forwards for an ace. This is like saying "This is SR and we picked off one of their dudes using all of our ults. Now we should teamfight!" That is the only thing making Revive a free pass for the enemy team to comeback. There is counterplay to Revive's own counterplay, and it doesn't involve Revive. If that makes sense.
Yeah, that makes sense, but requires intense coordination and I wouldn't plan on it happening basically ever.

Not finishing off champs just invites them to recall safely anyway.

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If the enemy wins a teamfight because of Revive zerging, then where was your own Revive? Oh, you used it already, and you decided to teamfight them in zerg range when it wasn't up.
You can even still have your Revive up but it is not necessarily going to have the same impact.

So you have a teamfight, your team loses handily, the other team has 3 low HP players up. You come back and sweep them up with little to no damage to your team. You now control the node, you have your entire team at nearly full HP. The enemy team could counter-Revive but it would be rather pointless. It would be a mostly even fight but on your terms.

If the same situation does not happen in reverse, then the match was never really "fair".

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Even if Revive is a problem, it is still a counter to a larger problem. And if Revive is nerfed, then every single game will be Exhaust/Garrison, only about 15 champions would be viable, and it would generally be the most awful and passive meta ever.
I'd love to see all of Dominion's major problems tackled all at once but it's just not going to happen (especially without some widespread agreement on what those problems are, but lol @ that).

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I don't think it [Revive] is a problem, though. Why did MMKH and I start the Revive meta and use it so much all of a sudden after several tournaments of not considering it? Because it made the game a ton more active. Because it made squishy champions more viable. Because it supplied counters to hyperaggressive teams that sought to 5-cap with multiple Garrisons. It was simply a positive change to the health of the game.
Revive is not a problem... in a vacuum. By itself it's not that great (except at bot lane). I would much prefer to play Flash/Surge Volibear or Exhaust/Garrison WW, but it is just not worth the risk against a coordinated team of Revives (also, bring back Surge Riot pls).

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Trololol why don't you like bot lane?
I don't like bot lane because I don't like bot lane.

That's a simple explanation but it highlights the major problem with bot lane and why it's a detriment to Dominion. It's a requirement. It's not debatable. You have a strong/competent bot laner or you forfeit the game. If you don't have someone good at bot, you have an argument in champ select. If you hate bot and nobody else wants to go, you get to suffer in a lane for 20 minutes while everyone else enjoys Dominion. If you are failing bot, you probably aren't going to get help or get a switch (solo queue problems). Then if you lose, it's all your fault.

It's everything that's wrong with SR balance in a nutshell. But it's the Dominion version. I hate it, and in my experience most other players also hate it. I'd love for dedicated bot laning to be made totally non-viable, but I don't see that ever happening (and I'm sure you will kick and scream to make sure of that).


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Phourc

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by FDru View Post
Getting an ace in a close fight is not a mistake, and not something that should be punished but thanks to Revive it's basically a free pass for the enemy team to take over the game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
Well why would you focus the guy with Flash first if he's near walls? Or Cleanse if you rely on CC? Or Garrison if he's on a point? Or Revive if you don't outnumber him or aren't positioned defensively? These are all counterplay summoner spells. Focusing down the guy without Revive means he's got an extra summoner and it does not guarantee winning the teamfight. Now if it was a skirmish and you got a pick on the Revive-less guy? His fault.
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Originally Posted by MyDeadGrandma View Post
It should never not be an option to press the advantage of an ace when you're already winning a teamfight (and I mean actually winning, not the red herring SR example of blowing all your team's CD); here, the impact of macromanaging completely undermines mirco, which feels **** on the fast pace, teamfights at every opportunity, of dominion.
My 2c on this topic: Killing a guy should never be a BAD play. However, with revive, you're basically just giving whoever dies first (at say, windmill, where that extra HP is hella stronk) a full heal, BONUS HEALTH and extra movespeed to get back into the fight.

It creates situations where it's actually advantageous to suicide quickly in a teamfight as long as your revive is up and you do enough damage, because once you get back to the fight no one can stand against you without full hp (which you in this hypothetical situation significantly reduced before you died).

I won't lie - it's fun popping *my* revive and dominating a teamfight, but the mandatory-ness and the complete bass-ackwardness of the power of dying is just a bit stupid.

(Oh and completely agree it's a necessary counter to how awful bot lane is and how ridiculously faster than you your enemy sometimes spawns - Nome you should really be looking into all three. ^^)


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Sauron

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyDeadGrandma View Post
Sauron, that is a complete dodge of what they are complaining about. They're talking about an all-in where you successfully outplay your enemy. Do you honestly think the game is better off because of this? If this was DotA, I'd understand, but one of Riot's core philosophies with LoL was that counter-intuitive play should not have so great an impact and passed off as 'skill' (deny).
I'd hardly call that a dodge. An all-in rarely happens in good Dominion play, unless one team is an aoe comp. The vast majority of fights are 2-3 person skirmishes spread out over a large area. Even if you have Revive, it is rarely a good idea to suicide to use it, when you can walk away instead. If you make someone burn their Revive for no reason, a significant threat has been removed from teamfights for the next 8-9 minutes.

When you kill a person with Revive, you can:

1). Keep fighting and encounter the guy who Revived, and fight him too to prolong the struggle and maybe your teammates can successfully hold that point.
2). Walk away and let them have the point, then have another teamfight shortly after where at least that person has no Revive.

This isn't counter-intuitive. This is taking the advantage and walking away to minimize risk. You don't kill an enemy laner on other maps and try to kill his turret -- at least one of his teammates is going to converge on that. Having Revive does not obligate you to play greedy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyDeadGrandma View Post
It should never not be an option to press the advantage of an ace when you're already winning a teamfight (and I mean actually winning, not the red herring SR example of blowing all your team's CD); here, the impact of macromanaging completely undermines mirco, which feels **** on the fast pace, teamfights at every opportunity, of dominion.
How is that comparison a red herring? It's an allegory to Revive teams, which we all know isn't used on SR. It's not that I disagree the macromanaging undermines the micro, but should micromanagement be so important that there shouldn't be a single ability dedicated to macromanagement? That it should be the end-all? You don't need Revive to win or even to increase your win/loss ratio. You just can't play like you have Revive when you don't.

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Originally Posted by MyDeadGrandma View Post
This seems to me like Tony Stark's problem with his magic pacemaker using palladium: The same thing keeping him alive is slowly killing him. We need to find a suitable replacement. If that means revamping all summoners for dom (and fixing wave respawn, of course) then that should be looked at.
I even said it in both versions of my guide. There's not very many viable summoner spells. I am not opposed to Revive changes, but I don't see a logical reason to nerf it now (or even soon, given the pace) when the main reasons it is taken are:

1). Respawn mechanics are awful.
2). It helps suppress the OPness that is Garrison.
3). Barrier, Clairvoyance, Flash, and Heal are all heavily nerfed, Smite has no place here, and Clarity has never been good.
4). Reduces the amount of stalemates, snowballs, and games that are decided by the 10 minute marker due to lockouts.

...

In case my stance in this thread (and previous Revive threads) hasn't been obvious, Revive should not be changed until the problems it counters/holds back are fixed. My posts have just been why I think that, and why I don't agree with people who think it should be nerfed now or that it is uncounterable.


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BuddhaRice

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Like infeed and Sauron have stated, if the comeback and respawn mechanics were revamped, then a nerf to, or even a complete removal of, revive is in order. There are many players in dominion who have played over 1000 games and they still don't correctly know how to use revive. That's their problem for not being a mastermind Sauron (excuse my condescending and satirical tone, but it is crucial to this post).


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konfetarius

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Meh, removing revive screws bot laners over far too much. The only real thing I don't like about it is that revive means 1 less combat summoner to play with (it's far more integral to the current feel and strategy of map than Flash is to SR), I wouldn't mind seeing Revive be made into a baseline spell Dominion spell.


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TechPrince

Senior Member

01-19-2013

I would rather tell them to delete useless spell Clairvoyance :P


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Infirc

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Senior Member

01-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TechPrince View Post
I would rather tell them to delete useless spell Clairvoyance :P
excuse me?, Clairvoyance isn't useless, any bot laner worth his salt knows how to use it, after all that role requires almost perfect map awareness, many prefer not to do it though, but it comes down to personal preference.


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Camen Sieder

Senior Member

01-19-2013

I would probably stop playing dominion if they took revive out... I find it is the only counter to bad teammates who don't know what to do or where to be.


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