Revive should been nerfed on dominion.

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IS14696195e1336cdef530a

Senior Member

01-16-2013

now teh disadvantages

you can use it twice ....
if we say ghost can save you and grant bonus ms while this grants bonus ms but forces you back to base anyway and got 5 times the cd ....

I know it gives much more speed but dude 9-10 mins cd is makes you able to use it twice...

And now to the fun part, if you take revive instead of "flash" it will have same effect
you ace them they revive they ace you you revive and ace them
thats like flash he flash i flash after him.... but that doesnt mean we need to remove it

Flash is op if enemy dont use it because you can catch up and escape so easy... same is revive maybe


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Kenzo84

Senior Member

01-16-2013

for revive to go we need garrison to go. if you remove revive it will be wich team have more garrisons.
Once a team will cap something good luck to take it back with that much garrisons,everybody will just turtle the points. i agree that revive is redundant but people mostly use it to play around the respawn timers to keep an advantage or take it back or make a come back. they need to fix the respawn system first and then we will be able to look over garrison and revive to see how we could rework/remove them IMO.


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IDontWasteFood

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by inFe eD View Post
I'd personally be fine with Revive being removed if, and only if, wave respawns/timer reductions get removed entirely. It's hard enough as it is to hold onto a won game with good Revive usage after the antisnowball kicks in, it would become waaaay more silly without it.
This.

Revive is to fight against loser respawns.


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Laiina

Member

01-16-2013

Revive needs to be buffed.


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FDru

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
Firstly, there's a fair amount of high end players that don't use Revive and still excel at Dominion.
If I played Sona or Janna every single game I wouldn't take Revive either. But you can only have so many "cheeseball ranged supports that never die" on a team. Not taking Revive on champs that can be focused and killed is generally an invitation to have exactly that happen, since organized players will always kill the ones without Revive first.

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Secondly, the majority of high end games have an equal number of Revives on each team. Thirdly, the "high end" group is vastly outweighed by the group that is not.
Not sure of the relevance of these statements. Please elaborate.

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Fourth, if you're "losing because you won" then you willingly placed yourself in that position, without your own countermeasures be that Revive or proper positioning.
This is ridiculous. Getting an ace in a close fight is not a mistake, and not something that should be punished but thanks to Revive it's basically a free pass for the enemy team to take over the game.

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if you're just diving into their turret to hold them down, they might win the teamfight and make a comeback.
And now Revive zerging is "winning the teamfight"! Give me a break.

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I find it rather funny that you rage against both Revive and the respawn mechanics.
If you payed attention you'd know I want the window respawns removed as well.

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Think back on how Dominion was before this spell, where the team with more Garrisons were guaranteed wins because if they ever 4-capped or 5-capped due to an ace, that was it. Immediate GG. Garrison -- now there's an actual overpowered summoner spell.
And I (and many others) have tossed out ideas for fixing Garrison many times but Riot doesn't seem to care about nerfing it whatsoever. What else can I do?

If you just want to pick on the fact that I hate Revive more than anything else about Dominion... deal with it.
(It actually isn't true anyway, because I hate bot lane being a "lane" most of all. It ruins this map and everything about it is ****ing stupid and it can die. But I think arguing against that is a pointless lost cause).


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bierfaust

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by FDru View Post
If I played Sona or Janna every single game I wouldn't take Revive either. But you can only have so many "cheeseball ranged supports that never die" on a team. Not taking Revive on champs that can be focused and killed is generally an invitation to have exactly that happen, since organized players will always kill the ones without Revive first.



Not sure of the relevance of these statements. Please elaborate.



This is ridiculous. Getting an ace in a close fight is not a mistake, and not something that should be punished but thanks to Revive it's basically a free pass for the enemy team to take over the game.



And now Revive zerging is "winning the teamfight"! Give me a break.



If you payed attention you'd know I want the window respawns removed as well.



And I (and many others) have tossed out ideas for fixing Garrison many times but Riot doesn't seem to care about nerfing it whatsoever. What else can I do?

If you just want to pick on the fact that I hate Revive more than anything else about Dominion... deal with it.
(It actually isn't true anyway, because I hate bot lane being a "lane" most of all. It ruins this map and everything about it is ****ing stupid and it can die. But I think arguing against that is a pointless lost cause).
Holy **** I can't up vote you enough. I feel the exact same way about every point you just made. Particularly the whole "bot lane" fiasco. When you step back for a while and look at DOM objectively, this map has so many massive issues it's a wonder Riot even bothered to release it all.

Honestly the whole thing needs to be scrapped and go back to the drawing board. The concept (king of the hill style map) was good, but the execution is a giant mess of problems. Especially when people start abusing huge over sights by the design team. (which is what happens when you put 99.99% of your focus for champion design, summoner spells, and balance into 1 map)

EDIT: And btw, basing the entire maps game flow around 1 summoner spell is retarded. There's nothing strategic about it, if anything it removes so much counter play and champion choice it's not even funny. (We killed the exceptional duelist that is almost always picked, oh look he just revived and is on his way to give us the smack down because all of our **** is on CD)


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MyDeadGrandma

Senior Member

01-16-2013

So at least most people are in agreement that revive is taken as a necessity, primarily because of the re-spawn mechanics. How about Nome looks at fixing this asap, then we can look at messing around with Dom-specefic summoners in an environment where losers don't have an overwhelming advantage?


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Sauron

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by FDru View Post
If I played Sona or Janna every single game I wouldn't take Revive either. But you can only have so many "cheeseball ranged supports that never die" on a team. Not taking Revive on champs that can be focused and killed is generally an invitation to have exactly that happen, since organized players will always kill the ones without Revive first.
Well why would you focus the guy with Flash first if he's near walls? Or Cleanse if you rely on CC? Or Garrison if he's on a point? Or Revive if you don't outnumber him or aren't positioned defensively? These are all counterplay summoner spells. Focusing down the guy without Revive means he's got an extra summoner and it does not guarantee winning the teamfight. Now if it was a skirmish and you got a pick on the Revive-less guy? His fault.

Many of the non-Revive users are not support players, but they will often pick a champion with some form of escape or disengage. This is logical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FDru View Post
Not sure of the relevance of these statements. Please elaborate.
It may surprise you, but a team with fewer Revives frequently wins because it has more utility, and the Reviveless person(s) can often bait the enemy team into focusing them when they've got something to fall back on (predictability, positioning, extra summoner). In a game with equal number of Revives, disparity is because the "winning" team given in the example is actually the losing team trying to press a temporary advantage when it is not wise to do so. Just like in the SR tournament last weekend, there's a good difference between power levels in lanes. One player might have the item advantage and would win in an outright duel, and the other player might have the gold advantage and would be smart to avoid an outright duel. But the gold advantage player is going to be the victor in 5 minutes.

That other point was a response to something you said. The Dominion forum here is basically the inverse of GD, where the "high end" makes a disproportionately large amount of forum posts and is very vocal. In reality, the high end group is actually much, much smaller than the rest, and a low player's gameplay experience matters just as much as a high player's. This is typical of smaller communities, and the TT forum is the same way. Ignoring the lower players is a fast-track to getting a game mode's population killed, while ignoring the higher players is a fast-track to getting a game mode's reputation killed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FDru View Post
This is ridiculous. Getting an ace in a close fight is not a mistake, and not something that should be punished but thanks to Revive it's basically a free pass for the enemy team to take over the game.
The correct response to killing a person in a teamfight that has Revive is pulling back in team positioning. Not moving forwards for an ace. This is like saying "This is SR and we picked off one of their dudes using all of our ults. Now we should teamfight!" That is the only thing making Revive a free pass for the enemy team to comeback. There is counterplay to Revive's own counterplay, and it doesn't involve Revive. If that makes sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FDru View Post
And now Revive zerging is "winning the teamfight"! Give me a break.
If the enemy wins a teamfight because of Revive zerging, then where was your own Revive? Oh, you used it already, and you decided to teamfight them in zerg range when it wasn't up.

If you don't have Revive and win the first wave, that's great, back out and now you have a massive advantage in the next 3 or so teamfights until their Revives are back up. If you force someone to blow their Revive to get back to a teamfight only to find that you've disengaged by gradually moving the teamfight closer to your own base, congratulations, you've burned their Revives for a whopping 8 minutes (assuming Mastermind) and you are likely to win future teamfights.

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Originally Posted by FDru View Post
If you payed attention you'd know I want the window respawns removed as well.
Even if Revive is a problem, it is still a counter to a larger problem. And if Revive is nerfed, then every single game will be Exhaust/Garrison, only about 15 champions would be viable, and it would generally be the most awful and passive meta ever.

I don't think it [Revive] is a problem, though. Why did MMKH and I start the Revive meta and use it so much all of a sudden after several tournaments of not considering it? Because it made the game a ton more active. Because it made squishy champions more viable. Because it supplied counters to hyperaggressive teams that sought to 5-cap with multiple Garrisons. It was simply a positive change to the health of the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FDru View Post
And I (and many others) have tossed out ideas for fixing Garrison many times but Riot doesn't seem to care about nerfing it whatsoever. What else can I do?

If you just want to pick on the fact that I hate Revive more than anything else about Dominion... deal with it.
(It actually isn't true anyway, because I hate bot lane being a "lane" most of all. It ruins this map and everything about it is ****ing stupid and it can die. But I think arguing against that is a pointless lost cause).
Let's see, a bot laner has:

-Big influence on enemy top team's positioning but not a gamebreaking one.
-Gold advantage but not a huge one.
-Very pick/counterpick and counterplay dependent.
-Some alternate strategies and the capacity to make some champions viable.
-Mistakes made down there are huge and crippling, which is perfect for your vision of a Revive-less Dominion. Trololol why don't you like bot lane?

I'm not really seeing a problem with bot lane being what it is. If you think changes should be made to it, perhaps simple things such as what parts of it are fog-revealed or where the brush is, then I'm sure Nome would consider it.


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A Slime Appears

Senior Member

01-16-2013

If you can't beat your bot laner (or they can't beat you) you'll/they'll be stalemating the lane, meaning it'll become a boring farm lane. That **** belongs in SR, not here >_> your best bet at that point is hoping for swap or a gank. That might occur often in high elo. Elsewhere you'll be farming for 10-15 minutes because leaving means you lose bot and your teammates don't give a ****. It is an incredibly boring experience at the best of times.

As for revive, I'd like to see it stay the way it is. I'd argue exhaust and garrison are probably fine, if you want to buff them all up, do it to the others.


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MyDeadGrandma

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
The correct response to killing a person in a teamfight that has Revive is pulling back in team positioning. Not moving forwards for an ace. This is like saying "This is SR and we picked off one of their dudes using all of our ults. Now we should teamfight!" That is the only thing making Revive a free pass for the enemy team to comeback. There is counterplay to Revive's own counterplay, and it doesn't involve Revive. If that makes sense.
Sauron, that is a complete dodge of what they are complaining about. They're talking about an all-in where you successfully outplay your enemy. Do you honestly think the game is better off because of this? If this was DotA, I'd understand, but one of Riot's core philosophies with LoL was that counter-intuitive play should not have so great an impact and passed off as 'skill' (deny).


It should never not be an option to press the advantage of an ace when you're already winning a teamfight (and I mean actually winning, not the red herring SR example of blowing all your team's CD); here, the impact of macromanaging completely undermines mirco, which feels **** on the fast pace, teamfights at every opportunity, of dominion.

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Even if Revive is a problem, it is still a counter to a larger problem. And if Revive is nerfed, then every single game will be Exhaust/Garrison, only about 15 champions would be viable, and it would generally be the most awful and passive meta ever.
This seems to me like Tony Stark's problem with his magic pacemaker using palladium: The same thing keeping him alive is slowly killing him. We need to find a suitable replacement. If that means revamping all summoners for dom (and fixing wave respawn, of course) then that should be looked at.


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