More jungle reworks - Why carry junglers are irrelevant.

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Syenite

Junior Member

01-16-2013

Just had a thought, why not change the meta? If you are sending a carry jungle, theres nothing stopping your team from compensating elsewhere. Singed/Cho'Gath/Shen/Malphite top, bruiser mid (Pantheon/Mundo/Sion etc..), then pair an agressive support like Nidalee, Sona, Janna with your AP carry bottom.

Will probably be flamed for this heretical kind of thinking, but I dont see any reason it wouldnt work. Most of the time teams don't know how to handle anything deviating from the meta. The AP carry would be fine bottom imo, many bruisers fare just fine mid, top is obviously fine. I think the lynch pin on this one would be the jungler carry. If he isnt pro, it probably wont work.


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DakuKori

Member

01-16-2013

Noct and shyv are both "carry junglers" and boast some of the highest clear times in the game, noct in particular is no laughing matter when you can get caught out anywhere on the map, especially if their team has good ward placements, but he's really the only exception. Besides koreans cause they can zed jungle and get a trillion kills and carry to infinity and beyond because of amazing teamwork and the knowledge that for a "assassin jungle" or a "carry jungle" to work, you need lanes with hard CC because they usually have little/none.


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SeCKS Egai

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Not that I get to pvp often these days, but from my personal experience, the changes to the jungle have severely reduced low level ganks aside from maybe a few champs like shaco who can finish off a buff quick and be out nearly unscathed. I would say that's been the biggest influence the monster hp increase has had.

I do agree carry jungles are pretty quirky - and when I've seen them successful its usually from early to mid game dominance in the lanes. If the lanes are holding up well, than a "carry" jungler can be that deciding factor.

In my last game, I had folks threatening to feed if they didn't get their spot and a teemo in our adc slot - I figured we were very likely to lose but with a volibear support and an irelia top I was better off running an off-tank jungler like udyr vs my usual shen or ram.

The enemy jungler was a khazix and managed to steal my red right as I finished golems and burned his flash to get away. I was behind, and without red I knew I wasn't gonna be a serious threat.

However, the enemy team was all damage-oriented, without even a single bruiser if I recall. In the fights that ensued, we would almost always come out on top, as no one on their team could act as a true damage soak or initiator without getting ripped apart. Aside from one team fight late game where they managed to take the two mid turrets (mind you we were up on turrets then too and had both their mids for a while).

While I was surprised they didn't surrender with the lead we had the entire match, it was fun all the same that it kept going. We effectively ended up tanking their damage far better than they could ours, even though they hit harder.

However, in a game before, a jungler yi without smite ended up turning the tides in our teamfights as most of their lanes ended up leading on our own. I don't recall them having maybe more than 1 bruiser or tank if that, but their lane dominance allowed them to rely on sheer damage to win the majority of fights.

I wouldn't say "carry" junglers are irrelevant completely - but as you typically need at least one tanky initiator short of complete lane dominance, generally you really are pretty limited in what you "should" run in the jungle. I primarily focus my efforts towards being an adc, but lately I've found filling in as a tank or tanky jungler when no one else will can make all the difference.


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Lumberjock

Member

01-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by PussPounder Esq View Post
The biggest problem is, there's only about 4 junglers presently who can clear with health potions left on Machete/5 start. Shen, Skarner, Cho'Gath, and Trundle. Most the others clear with none and incredibly low hp.

No. Shaco does better than that, udyr does fine especially if you jungle tiger, hecarim does fine, hell even jungle sion will have pots left after first clear.

Instead of speculation, i actually played the new jungle as hec. It slowed me down. Not by a TON, but 1-2 extra Q's per camp. Which was the idea.

Working as intended.


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Sephrinx

Senior Member

01-17-2013

I've always thought this:

Quote:
"The whole point of your ideology is "We'll make one monster harder to kill, and the rest way easier and it'll speed up single target junglers!" it really won't. It just means that they spend more time on the bigger monster, taking more damage and less time on the smaller monsters."
If Big wolf has 550 hp, and little wolves have 110 hp, that is 770 damage you must deal in order to clear the camp. If you take health off the small wolves and put them on the big wolf, making it 80/80/610, the out come of total hp is still 770. Now factor in the Wolves damage output, and you end up taking MORE damage, due to the Large wolf dealing a fk ton more damage, and the small wolves being saved for last, hitting you constantly.

It's like the more HP you give 'the big guy' the less viable single target junglers become.


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PussPounder Esq

Member

01-21-2013

Sorry I was gone a bit.

To answer some of your questions and thoughts.

-Meta change, theoretically sure, it could work, except we've seen carry jungle metas before back in S1 GP was a pretty big deal. We've seen bruiser support metas carry mid ap top metas ap mid support metas etc. That being said good luck convincing 2 million+ people to change their play style.

-DakuKori Shyvana and Nocturne aren't carry junglers bud. Shyvana is an AoE tanky initiator and a bit of a bruiser. Nocturne is a tanky initiator and assassin. Can you carry with them? Sure but you can carry with a support so long as you're making the plays happen, I've had games where the team couldn't do **** without me there at all stunning the right people, healing the right people, reducing armor and buffing everyone. We're talking about actual carry classified champions, like Yi, Tryn, and GP.

-xSeCKSx If you're playing smart (which yeah at low ELO bs it's pretty damn difficult to find in you normal lower ELO matches) But if you're playing smart keeping ward coverage and whatnot, a carry jungler minus GP who has an initiation and can be built tanky.

-LumberJock sure shaco can, I'm not going to run a huge list or argue semantics about who can and can't clear with health pots. The thing is Some champions don't fill an effective role. Shaco being one, not to mention he's easy to stop in the jungle.


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PussPounder Esq

Member

01-22-2013

And also Sephrinx yeah, it's kinda a big deal.


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PussPounder Esq

Member

01-23-2013

Bumpx2


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PussPounder Esq

Member

01-24-2013

bump


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