More jungle reworks - Why carry junglers are irrelevant.

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Orcman21

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01-16-2013

WW still AFK Clears in the Jungle


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PussPounder Esq

Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axiom Prime View Post
So where exactly do you put Udyr, who is one of the best AoE Junglers but lacks the dive ability and has very micro intensive CC?
When it comes down to it, Udyr mind you I have much love for him, was one of my favorite s1 and early s2 junglers, but he's just a bad champion as it is.He has no reliable gap close ability. To even make bear stance worth trying to chase in it needs at LEAST 3 points so it can be sustainable mobility. His single target damage actually runs more effective than his AoE (Tiger VS Phoenix) especially when you're talking about ganking and dealing champion damage. He has to rely heavily on items to make up for his lack of usable offensive utility. And his actual AoE clear, isn't "one of the best" it's null impressive to say the least, it works within about the same general confines of Skarners AoE and once Skarner's Q lands a second time he's doing about 40% more damage at a slightly faster rate.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not at all saying Udyr isn't a strong champion, just a bad one. Supports especially lately have been designed solely around protecting people. With the S3 item creations released, and the kind of existing support arsenal there is now he's really useless. He has 1 form of CC which can be used for a 1 second stun, every 6 seconds.His only CC. To catch people with that he has a pretty solid movement speed buff. Here is the problem with that movement speed buff.

-Early ranks blow hardcore.
-Even if you get caught there is Mekaiels Crucible to remove CC. Mercurial Scimitar to remove CC, and there is Twin Shadows which can be popped to slow him down for 2 seconds
-Most carries have some form of gap close/create (Graves quickdraw, MF's strut if you don't get it taken out it's a faster run than bear stance, Ezreal's Arcane shift etc.)
-The ones who don't have a gap close have a slow like Ashe's frost arrows, Varus's whatever the hell Varus does. Caitlyn's .90 caliber net does both
-Supports have been designed far too well for Udyr's viability:
Nami has Her ult which is a wide long range knock up/slow. She has the bubble which is a 1.5s supress essentially, and she has her damage buff which also adds a slowing effect.
-Lulu has Glitter Lance, Wimsey, and Rapid Growth. Which will slow by 50%, make him unable to use spells for 2 seconds or so and slow, and knock him up and slow him.
-Leona has a stun, and Stun+slow and a pretty substantial armor+mr buff to keep him from reaching the carry.
-One of Sona's power chord charges is a slow, she has a movement speed buff, and a wide AoE stun.
-Nunu has Blood boil for increased speed, and Ice blast for massive slow. Plus he has Absolute zero if need be. But nunu does the best job at stopping udyr because he removes movement speed and attack speed from people with his slowing spells.

As of now there is the iceborn gauntlet, phage, Rylie's Crystal Scepter, and frozen mallet which all apply a large slow. Udyr still can't do anything about those.

Anyone building a randuin's omen can stop udyr effectively.

Most people give ADC the red buff, which just further lets them kite Udyr.

The only saving grace for Udyr is just completely dumb opponents, with no map awareness, and god awful skill shot abilities.

I think full CC immunity would be great on bear stance, but then it'd make Udyr the most broken champion in the world.


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PussPounder Esq

Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orcman21 View Post
WW still AFK Clears in the Jungle
Yeah you're right, forgot about him lol. WW also has a little more viability with jungling now with S3. Not much, I doubt seeing him make it to a competitive scene any time soon, but he definitely got better. And I suppose Udyr does do it pretty well too clearing with decent health, given you take points in turtle shield.


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PussPounder Esq

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01-16-2013

Bumpin'


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PussPounder Esq

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01-16-2013

Still bumpin'


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TheRealBOBDOLE

Member

01-16-2013

i read your post. Warwick. That is all.


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Shloomp

Junior Member

01-16-2013

So, with your Udyr example you say that he is useless because he can easily be CC'd, but that is almost any champ. Udyr's role is usually a tank, or an off tank, so later in the game he probably won't see as much CC because, if your opponent is a reasonable one, they will not blow CC on a tank. If they do, then they will probably take a lot more damage overall because they wasted CC on a tank rather than a carry. Plus his consistent stun and ability to put out damage is pretty scary for a tank. I don't quite see how this qualifies him as bad.


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PussPounder Esq

Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shloomp View Post
So, with your Udyr example you say that he is useless because he can easily be CC'd, but that is almost any champ. Udyr's role is usually a tank, or an off tank, so later in the game he probably won't see as much CC because, if your opponent is a reasonable one, they will not blow CC on a tank. If they do, then they will probably take a lot more damage overall because they wasted CC on a tank rather than a carry. Plus his consistent stun and ability to put out damage is pretty scary for a tank. I don't quite see how this qualifies him as bad.
Because it's more effective to initiate on people with a reliable gap closer, one that Udyr does not have. Not to mention if he is as dangerous as you're assuming he is, then blowing CC on him is effective. Not to mention. Udyr can never initiate which tends to be the tanks role in the game. What's going to happen every time you see Udyr's bear form activate and he comes running? A smart team is going to slow him/poke him. He won't make it to them, and he just gave up a bunch of free hp.

Then what happens if there is a malphite, and a cho'gath for example on the enemy team. Udyr needs to be able to get to squishier targets who are the focus of fights. With Malph Q, and Cho's rupture and silence, Udyr can't persist in bear form, has no defensive shield, and can't put out his damage. Assuming he can even get that close. On the flip side, Maokai can get right into the middle, Vi can get in the middle of it, Malphite can get in the middle of it, Cho can knock people up and let 5 people charge, plus he can silence people amumu can fly from a huge distance and lock everyone down, Nautilus can knock up a bunch of people slow the world away, root anything he auto attacks, and pull people who are over extended. Nocturne can dive into the middle of the team, Olaf can outright run past any CC with Ragnarok. Rengar can ult run in and leap to anyone.


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Syenite

Junior Member

01-16-2013

"The biggest problem is, there's only about 4 junglers presently who can clear with health potions left on Machete/5 start. Shen, Skarner, Cho'Gath, and Trundle. Most the others clear with none and incredibly low hp."

Shout out to Hecarim! I used to jungle Twitch S2, and you are right in that carry junglers are basically gimmicks. You short your team an initiate, steal kills from all the lanes you gank, and are very vulnerable to counter jungling. Depending on how good you are you can carry an entire game, but once you face a team with a clue they will be ready and not allow you to get fed. Once that happens you are just a low farmed carry with no kills 20 minutes into the game... Its an uphill battle from there and your team is overall squishy because of you! Not the greatest recipe for success.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

01-16-2013

This thread doesn't need bumps, by the way. I'm all for discussion, but the bumps are unnecessary.


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