Eve Change Clearly Violates Game Design Anti-Patterns

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Kholdstare13

Senior Member

01-16-2013

I would recommend the DFG treatment. Reduce the %, but keep it out of max, then give a debuff for increased damage taken, but only from eve. (otherwise it would be OP) This makes it a strong initiator (as intended), leaves the opportunity to save it and still be moderately effective, or even execute a very low opponent if needed. It shifts power to initiation, but does not completely remove utility if saved.


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Maliton

Senior Member

01-16-2013

From all the time ive played the game some nerfs are rough and some are weak. Eves nerf was a direct response to the fact that magic resist in general has taken a back seat in the game. FoN being gone from the game is a huge loss to AP damage reduction. And pre nerf her ult when late game was crazy strong. Now i do agree that they may have gone a bit overboard on the nerf but when it comes to her mechanics, she can compensate for it.

Think of it like this, most people play eve pure ap, and as an assassin she is primarly the only ap driven one. Diana can be tossed into the conversation however shes not invis and cant roam the map undetected like eve can. Getting back to my point, her hate spike is on a very low cd, which it needs to be for jungle farm otherwise she would be useless. Name another AP that can cast a 100% hit move on that low of a cd? There really are none. So to balance her out a bit they took away from her big nuke damage move but left her sustainable damage the same.

As the game sat pre nerf, if she got 2-3 kills early she was a total nightmare late game. Now shes going to have to be played more reserved, she wont be able to just roam lanes, gank, clear top jungle, gank, clear bot jungle, and gank like she used to be able too. She will have to be more careful where she shows up in lane because she cant just snipe anymore. It was the main reason twitch lost his long invis, they didnt want him to be able to set up constantly and pick off anyone and everyone not with the team. In a sence they made twich just an ad carry and replaced the sniper twitch with eve. I do not believe that was the entended use for her.

You can mark my words now that she will more than likely get a minor buff or a partial revert on the ult but dont expect the same overall damage to be returned. It was quite a high damage move with the size of the skill itself.


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Nea De Penserhir

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Your argument makes little sense.

The optimal time to use Eve's ult is when you can have as many priority targets gathered to shave off as much health as possible.

Optimal time didn't change, only the condition for it to happen.


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l33t

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Hmm.. You're right on the other points. But her ult still is over nerfed, especially considering the modifier nerfs on her other abilities. She is squishy in nature and the recent nerfs do not help that point at all. It NEEDS a base damage on it. There are so many champions she will lose against now because of that change and the hp/mana conditions. Might as well toss her out base to base when she's low and everyone else is still fighting and doing damage with low hp/mana.


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blitzen

Junior Member

01-16-2013

I've played Eve from season 1. Do i think this nerf is a bit harsh? In a sense yes. Do I think she is useless? No, not even close. She is still viable and very good mid and jungle.

Please keep in mid they slightly increase her Q and E bonus damage ratio. Her ulti, yes it sux that you can't snipe anymore, but is that a champ breaker? No. All Eve players has to admit that it was a bit ridiculous, borderline funny that you can Stack 600+ AP with no sustain in ranked and still dominate. Snipe a group of 4-5 enemy champs to initiate, W in and burst out adc then Q+E to get triple, Quad, Penta Kills.

Yes you can no longer do this and it is best to build sustain on Eve now, but I think she is more balanced with her Q, E slight buff now. Not to mention you can clear jungle a little faster. Not like your gonna ulti Jungle mobs anyways lol


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GurkenMAN

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrButtermancer View Post
I'm not going to waste your time, so:

Here is the quote from Zileas:

"Unclear Optimization
This is a more subtle one. when players KNOW they've used a spell optimally, they feel really good. An example is disintegrate on Annie. When you kill a target and get the mana back, you know that you used it optimally, and this makes the game more fun. On the other hand, some mechanics are so convoluted, or have so many contrary effects, that it is not possible to 'off the cuff' analyze if you played optimally, so you tend not to be satisfied. A good example of this is Proudmoore's ult in DOTA where he drops a ship. The ship hits the target a bit in the future, dealing a bunch of damage and some stun to enemies. Allies on the other hand get damage resistance and bonus move speed, but damage mitigated comes up later. Very complicated! And almost impossible to know if you have used it optimally -- do you really want your squishies getting into the AOE? Maybe! Maybe not... It's really hard to know that you've used this skill optimally and feel that you made a 'clutch' play, because it's so hard to tell, and there are so many considerations you have to make. On the other hand, with Ashe's skill shot, if you hit the guy who was weak and running, you know you did it right... You also know you did it right if you slowed their entire team... Ditto on Ezreal's skill shot."

And here's the skill change:
Agony's Embrace
Damage changed to 15/20/25% of the target's current health from 15/20/25% of their max health
Cooldown increased to 150/120/90 seconds from 120/90/60
Cast range reduced to 650 from 800

Riot obviously thought Agony's Embrace was not in the right place. That's fine. Numbers can be adjusted. But I argue that they clearly entered the realm of what they'd consider Game Design Anti-Patterns and here's why: Agony's Embrace used to be damage optimal at any point of a combo, and CC optimal after your opponent has Flashed (you slow them down so you can catch up). It has been changed to be damage optimal ONLY as an opening move (% current health, you are PUNISHED for using it when your opponent is low and it CANNOT finish off an opponent. As Eve is a stealth champion, if you are playing well, your opening move is very early in your opponent's possible awareness of you. This means that they are likely to flash after you've used it, if you used it damage-optimally. CC optimal, however, remains after the Flash.

Understanding this, the contradiction in utility should be obvious. If you initiate with Agony's Embrace, you deal the most damage, but your opponent will Flash, and you will not have that slow any longer. If you hold Agony's Embrace to help counter the inevitable Flash, you will suffer damage proportional to the amount of damage you dealt while holding the CC. This CLEARLY falls under "contrary effects" and dissatisfaction from not being able to use the ability optimally.

I am not opposing a nerf to the old manifestation of the ability. I am pointing out that the change made is intrinsically problematic.

A few points: Flash CD is roughly once per teamfight in active games. Talon. Shaco. Akali. These assassins (and many others) have mechanics that can mitigate a Flash. For Eve, that's W and R. Assassins benefit from this. It's a defining aspect of the role. You can Flash to counter Flash, but for an assassin, that's not ideal. Eve is given a devil's choice in her current "ultimate," which I used to be able to honestly type without using quotation marks.
No! The change is really OK. It gives exactly the "right" feeling if used right. Thats as an initiation skill now. Eve is a great cleaner without ult anyways.

And btw: Argumenting with "flash away" is just silly. Sorry for that but then many ablities would be pointless (All skilshots, all slows, Zyra ulti and such) but they ARE powerful although flash is a "counter" somehow.

Maybe she needs some numbers to be tuned up after the nerf- dont know about that, time will show, but stating ult is now useless is just...well wrong^^

But ult out of stealth as execute/initiate with absurd range is just... yes... bad and unfun gameplay. Needed to be "fixed"- dont wanna say "nerfed" here.

Although i dont agree with the increased manacost on q- why that?


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GurkenMAN

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by blitzen View Post
I've played Eve from season 1. Do i think this nerf is a bit harsh? In a sense yes. Do I think she is useless? No, not even close. She is still viable and very good mid and jungle.

Please keep in mid they slightly increase her Q and E bonus damage ratio. Her ulti, yes it sux that you can't snipe anymore, but is that a champ breaker? No. All Eve players has to admit that it was a bit ridiculous, borderline funny that you can Stack 600+ AP with no sustain in ranked and still dominate. Snipe a group of 4-5 enemy champs to initiate, W in and burst out adc then Q+E to get triple, Quad, Penta Kills.

Yes you can no longer do this and it is best to build sustain on Eve now, but I think she is more balanced with her Q, E slight buff now. Not to mention you can clear jungle a little faster. Not like your gonna ulti Jungle mobs anyways lol
Well to get the same dmg out of the "e" you now need 200 bonus-ad at max level. Thats quite much^^
Shes nerfed hard, yes. But i think the ultnerf goes the right direction.
The numbers on other skills- well they may need tweaking again, but i like the direction of the nerfs (mainly the ridiculously strong, quite low cd ult)


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Reck1ess

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Senior Member

01-16-2013

All of their "remakes" have made champions less viable than their previous state. Sivir, TF, Nidalee, Twitch, to name a few more.


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Chaotic Butcher

Senior Member

01-16-2013

all i want to say is Eve has the worst ult in the game now she is like a bruser that cant take damage


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Maliton

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by warmachineares View Post
all i want to say is Eve has the worst ult in the game now she is like a bruser that cant take damage
then build her like a bruiser?!? you cant expect to build like a paper cannon and run in melee everyone to death, it doesnt work aka tryn. At least she gets some sort of shield if she ults properlly. Your argument doesnt make alot of sence because i'm fairly sure J4's ult is about as useless as hers is according to you. At least with her its a hit does decent damage and slows everyone along with giving her a shield. Last time i checked J4 could ult, you can flash, leap, arcane shift, ext ext to get out of it leaving him scratching his a$$.

If your building a melee champ, sacrafice quick pure damage output for a sustainable prolonged output. 1k worth of damage in 2 seconds isnt as good as 3.5k over 8 seconds. If you last longer you can kill more, not blow your whole load and die before anything is killed.