So from what I understand out of the rating changes for ranked

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Mystic Blue Fox

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Senior Member

01-16-2013

There's gonna be no visible ratings, just League Tiers. A chunk of the reason I enjoy ranked is to have a rating, sure it's not 100% accurate to a players skill, but it's still a neat thing to say "hey I reached this area". This is minor because.....


...the part that struck me most: "Once you’ve earned a skill tier, however, you can never be demoted to the previous tier unless you stop playing for a prolonged period of time."

If this is true, then that means people that duo to reach areas they shouldn't will now climb up to whatever tier they get to and instead of normally falling back down where they should be, they instead will just stay there. Doesn't this seem flawed or incorrect? It doesn't even really feel like you're being rewarded for playing skillfully in this sense.

Sure they won't go higher in tier, but how is this fair to everyone else who was not carried up?


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Hotdogs

Senior Member

01-16-2013

i dont understand exactly how the system works yet
what stops me from losing 1000 games delibrately and then earning massive league points by winning many games easily because my elo is so low. repeat till im at the top league.


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Mystic Blue Fox

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01-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotdogs View Post
i dont understand exactly how the system works yet
what stops me from losing 1000 games delibrately and then earning massive league points by winning many games easily because my elo is so low
This too, it almost seems like this new system will actually allow trolling to be even easier to do. Not to mention people that throw games to "make a point" and what not.


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Hotdogs

Senior Member

01-16-2013

ok looks like i found my answer



So my question is this:

What if I obtain gold league division I then proceed to lose 30 games strait. Will this still decrease my elo even though my "league points" don't go down at all?

IF SO, if I start winning again, wouldn't this make moving up in the gold league way easier because I tanked my elo to begin with and are being matched up against lower rated players while still being in the gold league?



It would actually make it harder to move up because your hidden Elo would say, "This guy deserves to be in a lower Tier, don't give him as many League Points until he proves otherwise. And you would climb slower until your Elo caught back up.

Small, reasonably expected losing streaks would not trigger this behavior, but abuse cases (intentionally tanking Elo to gain an advantage) would.


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Mystic Blue Fox

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01-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotdogs View Post
ok looks like i found my answer


It would actually make it harder to move up because your hidden Elo would say, "This guy deserves to be in a lower Tier, don't give him as many League Points until he proves otherwise. And you would climb slower until your Elo caught back up.

Small, reasonably expected losing streaks would not trigger this behavior, but abuse cases (intentionally tanking Elo to gain an advantage) would.
Well at least you found yours, I'm going to be worrying about this.

I mean what's the point in soloing to your skill level when you can just find any friend who's exceptional to carry you up to a higher spot. Then due to the rules, you can't lose that place you end up regardless of how terrible you may be and don't belong.


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Hotdogs

Senior Member

01-16-2013

the answer is that duo queuing shouldn't be able to pull you to a higher spot

but if it can then the system is bad

i just hope i can still lolking my elo


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Mystic Blue Fox

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Senior Member

01-16-2013

They should just make Solo and Duo seperate queue's if this goes through, otherwise I really lose the will to even play ranked at all with people just cheezing their way up.

Join them and beat them at their own game by finding a duo partner? No way, I get zero gratification as a player to do something like that.


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KiStorm

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotdogs View Post
(intentionally tanking Elo to gain an advantage)
This isn't how ELO works, if you think it is, you're dead wrong.

It is a mathematical adaptive system, not a linear calculation but multiplicative algebra, tied in with calculus, quadratics, trigonometry, spacial calculations and all manner or wildly fantastical magicka.

If you throw thinking it will increase your rewards, it in fact measures skill level for each game, if you are matched in easier and easier games and then somehow throw one it rated as 100% win for example against an AFK it will flick a switch and revert its formulas to base and calculate off what it knows, essentially it can and will reset its "impression" and you will suffer the same symptom of "low rewards" and "high punishments" purely because if it resets you at a lower elo at some point, you may not really notice with the wildly varying games and when you decide to climb, you may be being rated from that game on and that game alone, if not the one before or the one after, in fact it could easily reset for each game based on hidden factors and be a more accurate system than we all assume it to be, especially if it punishes you this game and rewards you greatly for the next just to throw off your figures.

Maths is intensely difficult to duplicate but judging a players skill comes easy, if you sit down and spectate random games and give a rating its quite easy to not only patch elo, but punish throwers, greatly reward the struggling etc.

Just because its a calculation doesn't mean human input cannot and will not be used, in fact its better if it does/is.


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DESSILATOR

Member

01-16-2013

Think of starcraft 2, if ur throw everygame ur gunna be bottom of barrel gold, similar to elo hell, except its elo gold hell, elo silver hell ect.


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KiStorm

Senior Member

01-16-2013

I mean how can you discuss figures of tanking ELO, manipulating it, or even flaws if you don't know how it works?

It's easy to take a look at a spider and call it an abomination for biting you but if you learnt how it works or what it is you may not only realise it probably doesn't know better, you may actually respect it.

Much like ELO, you don't know how it works, you see it punish/reward and that's it, you can make all the assumptions you want but no one openly discussing the flat system will release anything that can be used to manipulate it, thus it's hearsay to speak about experiences of its systems without having any actual data on it, thus even considering people to abuse it is much like saying you can guarantee a win.

Ok, you know ELO will reward you 12 elo for your next game, doesn't mean you'll win, in fact knowing if it thinks you will win or lose means very little and not only does it counter for reverse engineering in many ways, but even if you know when to try hard and when to not bother, it is beyond a joke the best calculation of our day because one single human input can reset it, it can reset itself, it can be using randomised integers or accurate integers for a specific game, it can over-estimate or under-estimate intentionally, it can over-reward or over-punish intentionally and then throw in a counter for the next game, or the 10th game from that one and match you with -800 ELO players in a group, in fact it probably would.


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