@Morello/Reds -- do you want AP Varus to be a thing?

123
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Sir Tiddles

Senior Member

01-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cenerae View Post
I believe the general design philosophy behind AD champs with AP ratios (or magic damage skills) is that it's a method to keep the power of the champion balanced properly. Even though the skill has an AP ratio, you still use it because it's a good skill. If you gave it an AD ratio then you significantly buff the champion's power.

Something along those lines at least. This was a good year or two ago when the red in question (I think it was Xypherous actually) said this. Their design philosophy may have changed by now, or I may have gotten it muddled a bit. But looking at Varus it certainly seems to hold true - his W and R are still good even without any AP. Imagine what he'd be like if they had AD scaling.
I remember reading something along those lines about AD carries being built with AP ratios on some skills so as to not have a lot of burst and sustained damage both. Meddler, However, AP Varus' overall damage is pretty good in my opinion, but he is lacking in a few tools that really hurt his laning phase (lifesteal not an option/spellvamp not even procced by blight just his ult, and no form of AP ratio harass outside of his autoattacks for pre-brawlin poke) and AP/AS itemization has an early gold ceiling and doesn't quite fit all the stats AP Varus wants into a full item build.

Varus' designer, Meddler, buffed Varus' AP ratio on Blight in the August 14, 2012 patch, so there was obviously some interest in AP Varus being a viable build at some point.

I think adding a mediocre AP ratio to Q (.3-.5 depending on charge time) while leaving it physical damage so it doesn't scale that well into late game with penetration, and giving malady the hexdrinker treatment by reducing its stats and cost to around 1400 and then making it combine into a larger more expensive item with a little more AP and some CDR and mana regen (I would like to see Nashor's Tooth and Malady be reworked and combine for a 4000+ total gold cost item) would pretty much fix all of his problems.

He would still have weaknesses:
- Lower sustained damage than AD carries due to lack of crits
- Abyssal < Cleaver for team fights, if an ally purchases it
- Still won't have a good form of health sustain
- Won't burst as well as mages
- Has less CC than utility mages like Orianna

But he would have some strengths:
- Higher AoE damage/burst than most AD carries
- Better than average CC compared to AD carries
- More sustained damage than mages
- Would be able to trade poke/harass with an AP ratio added to Q. But late game when people buy resists, Q would not add much damage to fights as it would not benefit from void staff as it is still physical damage (and he obviously would not be building a last whisper)


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Sir Tiddles

Senior Member

01-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Centuros View Post
No he's saying that if you DO get the 3 hits + proc, you will then WIN the trade due to more % damage on the blight stacks.
This is a major point for me. AP Varus plays differently than AD Varus. True, it still needs a little bit of love I think, but there are definite situations and playstyles where AP Varus is better, and I prefer AP Varus.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Sir Tiddles

Senior Member

01-26-2013

Just finished a game as AP Varus. It ended with me doing a lot of damage and getting a good K/D ratio, but because we lost our Zed support (who didn't ward, zone, CC, but had time to die 8 times and complain a lot) reported me for playing AP Varus in normals.

@Riot: Is it really a reportable offense to play AP Varus in normals? Do you want to discourage this build on him? Do you want to encourage people to play him AP if they want?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

pancakesyo

Member

01-26-2013

The thing with hybrid or AP varus is that he has NO SUSTAIN. he doesnt acquire spell vamp from his ability's therefore making ap/hybrid varus not viable. Please riot do something about this since the designer himself wanted varus to be hybrid play a thing.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Sir Tiddles

Senior Member

01-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by pancakesyo View Post
The thing with hybrid or AP varus is that he has NO SUSTAIN. he doesnt acquire spell vamp from his ability's therefore making ap/hybrid varus not viable. Please riot do something about this since the designer himself wanted varus to be hybrid play a thing.

You're right, most of AP Varus' damage is from on-hit effects that do not proc lifesteal or spellvamp, so he is pretty gimped in the sustain department.

However, giving him sustain is not my first choice if any buffs were to be given to AP Varus. I'd much rather see a moderate AP ratio added to his Q so that he has a non-autoattack reliant form of harass during the laning phase, as well as the itemization changes I mentioned earlier.

This way he could perform in mid lane and not just be zoned the whole time. He would still be able to go in bot lane, but he would be more reliant on a sustain support. I feel this would keep the two builds of AP and AD sufficiently different in playstyle to be worthwhile in tuning both builds.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Sir Tiddles

Senior Member

02-07-2013

Bumping in hopes of a red response.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ulquiorra995

Senior Member

02-07-2013

AP Varus needs a good team to succeed. His damage is unrivaled at full build (40% AP per attack with Malady and Spellsword mastery, 100% AP, and ~60% max HP when you detonate 3 blight stacks). However, there are 3 major issues with him:
1.) No sustain. Lifesteal is not helping, and Blight does not proc spellvamp
2.) No mobility
3.) Most important, his combo is WAY to long. Annie can just QWRF you to hell in 1 second. Malzahar drops gate, null zone, DoT and ult in around 1-2 seconds. But Varus... for max burst he needs 3 attacks > spell > 3 attacks > spell > (they are probably dead by now, but if they are not) 3 attacks > spell.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Sir Tiddles

Senior Member

02-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulquiorra995 View Post
AP Varus needs a good team to succeed. His damage is unrivaled at full build (40% AP per attack with Malady and Spellsword mastery, 100% AP, and ~60% max HP when you detonate 3 blight stacks). However, there are 3 major issues with him:
1.) No sustain. Lifesteal is not helping, and Blight does not proc spellvamp
2.) No mobility
3.) Most important, his combo is WAY to long. Annie can just QWRF you to hell in 1 second. Malzahar drops gate, null zone, DoT and ult in around 1-2 seconds. But Varus... for max burst he needs 3 attacks > spell > 3 attacks > spell > (they are probably dead by now, but if they are not) 3 attacks > spell.

These are good comments. I think there are a few issues underlying AP Varus, itemization is pretty terrible for one. If they gave malady the hexdrinker treatment (lower cost/stats to aroundn 1400 and make it build into something bigger), preferably combining with a reworked nashor's tooth, I think it would help a lot of the itemization problems Varus has. Right now he has some options for late game items, but not that many good options. Loads of AP and AS is required, but he also needs CDR, hurricane and malady are kind of required for AP Varus to distinguish from AD Varus, and he can't fit all of this plus a form of sustain and a luxery defense item like AD carries can.

Sustain is definitely a problem, espcially in early laning phase where other carries can get a revolver/doran blade/vamp scepter and you honestly can't build anything for sustain. On hit effects don't proc spellvamp, so neither building up stacks nor consuming them will give spellvamp. I think this needs to be changed -- to be honest I think if just the passive blight damage per auto procced spellvamp that would be enough.

Another thing that would help his early game is a moderate AP ratio on his Q, which is in my opinion his signature spell. Keep it doing physical damage so he doesn't scale too crazy late game, but I think this would really help his laning phase so he had a way to harass not tied to his autoattack. This might also make up for the total impossibility of sustain as things are right now.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Sir Tiddles

Senior Member

02-16-2013

Bump for a red response


123