@RiotNome Wave Respawn System and Nexus health mechanics encourages bad play.

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ShawNuff

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01-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
This is on the long-term projects radar. It's definitely a fairly subtle mechanic given how impactful it is.
Precisely why it must be dealt with. Its important to have mechanics that are at least somewhat clear to the players or else correct play becomes much more difficult/unintuitive. Right now, the capture and hold style of the game yells at players to get ahead and keep the lead, while this mechanic is whispering that it might be better just to make the lategame comeback.


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cft24

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by AgaresOaks View Post
I personally think the only reason people don't like the respawn wave and respawn timer mechanics is because they don't play with them in mind. Ever. I mean, it's part of the game state. It's like playing not knowing what champ you are or playing not knowing what the current node split is. That's just... patently silly.

Now, obviously, for the vast majority of players, like, functionally the mechanics don't matter. There's so many other ways for you to improve your play that exploiting the edges those mechanics give you really doesn't matter.

The question of respawn waves is whether you want a frontloaded edge or a backloaded edge. (ie. if you want to make a big push, does everyone need to move out at the same that the first guy that died or the last guy that died?) Functionally they're not horribly different one's just 12 seconds slower than the other. The frontloaded edge (respawn waves) gives the opportunity to turn it into a backloaded edge by delaying a kill. The backloaded edge opens up a bunch of small timings in which you can do stuff (it's about 3-4 second timings or so).

The question of respawn timers I personally believe is just not explored. I don't think I've seen a team that's vastly ahead just play SO conservatively to point of saying "okay, you can have the point now, but we're going to poke the **** out of you now to get a positional advntage because we have a 300+ point lead". I mean, that's just basic gameplay. If you have material and you need position to win, you should leverage your material to get position. If you have position and need material to win, you need to find a way to leverage your position to get material.

There's also this seemingly underlying feeling that if you outplay someone really hard, you should beat them by a large number of points, which is just plain... wrong? I mean, look at it this way. Player A consistently wins 70% of his games by just one point and loses 30% of his games by 400 points. Player B consistently loses 70% of his games by only one point and wins 30% of his games by 400 points. Who's the more dominating player? If you go by points, B, but I bet you that anyone here would rather be player A.

In MTG this is called "win-more". In SC you might've heard it referred to as "if you're ahead, get more ahead" (though the concept applies differently here because of the game mechanics) or perhaps if you're older you'll have read Day9's article on the marginal advantage.

Like, it shouldn't be until people are doing continuously doing patently stupid things like doing a suicidal 2-for-1 to open up a 10 second timing to exploit that you should be asking for the mechanics to be changed. (and even then, that might just be how the game gets played)
^ this +1000000000


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wingstreet

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Senior Member

01-16-2013

agreed. big time issue. great read op.


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IDontWasteFood

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
This is on the long-term projects radar. It's definitely a fairly subtle mechanic given how impactful it is.
Fix it. Fix it now.


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Outsideheaven

Junior Member

01-16-2013

riot pls


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Warlord Buwberry

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Senior Member

01-18-2013

I think what spelled disaster more then +2/-2 was the respawn wave mechanic. I think i counted 4-5 times where i got on the edge of a respawn wave and had a 12 second death timer, however i was the only one that got that kinda luck, because i was killed 3rd or 4th every fight. The rest of our team had the normal 24 second death timers or 22 for feed(talent), and i saw at no point where the first person dying had a lower death timer then 24. Your death timers were 28 and the base if we were both equal would be 26. So the +2/-2 never changed throughout the game.

As the early game/mid game progressed, your team was stronger, but we had a better late game team. I counted 2 times that a top tower was stopped by a zyra revive and the next one was a maokai revive. On the 3rd attempt(where feed revived), you finally went down as you had no revives left. As the game went on with your revives on cd and our revives coming up, it spells disaster if you make too many mistakes. Even near the end when "I" hit a respawn wave to come back top and stop your final attempt to take top, we discussed whether we should revive or not, and if you would've been closer, we would've and the outcome would've been the same. As for respawn wave mechanics, you love it when it happens to you and you hate it when it happens to your enemy. There has been so many games we've lost to BPB/Point Defense, because the wave respawns were good to them and we had members just barely not hitting the respawn wave.

Now as a solution to the problem, it's not easy to change the respawn wave system, as it's a natural defense to prevent base camping and easy 5 capping. If the wave system was not in place, mid game teams would rule dominion and it'd only take 1 really good wipe with tons of garrisans to win the game and i'm not sure if riot will want a game mode like that. In the end it all comes down to execution and how long you can hold 3 points/win teamfights. Around the 150 point mark, your team was already starting to lose their mid game strength and our late game team was starting to kick in and we finally at 23 points took the tower away from you on the 3rd winning teamfight. As a winning team, you always know that eventually, your going to lose that windmill when their revives come back up and should always be prepared for it and not be surprised when it happens. Reset, replan and stay calm. Your last 200 points of your nexus were just gutted out from under you as we layed seige and our late game kicked in. It's OK to have 2 towers, as your nexus health doesn't drop by very much and gives you all the time in the world to rewin the game. If you want better snowball mechanics, SR is the place to be, but here in dom we love to always have a chance to win no matter what and comebacks like those are good ratings material for riot to one day advertise.

Welcome to the MLB where you can lose it all in the 9th inning if you don't stop their offense when it really counts. GL to you guys in the future and we hope to see your rising skilled team some more.


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brownbruiser

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01-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptnBuwberry View Post
Welcome to the MLB where you can lose it all in the 9th inning if you don't stop their offense when it really counts. GL to you guys in the future and we hope to see your rising skilled team some more.

does the losing team get 6 outs in the bottom of the 9th?


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Chavez Obama

Senior Member

01-18-2013

Thought I would clarify, it is 100 seconds less spent dead, not 300. 300 is a copy past abomination


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Chavez Obama

Senior Member

01-18-2013

Although I'm sure that the respawn timers did play a large role in the game it's not like we didn't have our chances. That's probably a more immediate concern than hoping riot changes fundamental game mechanics anytime soon.


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Kraogg

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