Suggestion: Vote to kick in Champion select (ranked solo Q only)

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A DraKeY

Member

01-16-2013

Think about the stuff that causes player to dodge on a regular basis. "OMG IRELIA JUNGLE", "OMG VEIGAR MID", "OMG LUX SUPPORT", "OMG LUX HAS CLARITY".

Apply this to a kick function. And hey presto, no more even slightly unconventional champions/strats in Ranked no matter how successful it is. (like my 70% win rate jungle Draven earlier this season lmao)

Basically you turn ranked into a "OH I CAN'T CARRY THIS GUY LETS BOOT HIM" instead of a "**** YEAH I WANNA PROVE IM GOOD LETS GO INTO QUEUE AND OWN THE ENEMY TEAM". You're all too busy thinking about making your game super easy instead of about how to get better. Plus, I've gone into games with plenty of people who troll pick and do extremely well, as well as won loads of games with hardcore feeders intentional/unintentional on my team. In fact, most of the time I actually lose is due to Malphite/Darius *insert really easy to play champ here* getting picked and then failing miserably.


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Phythic

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Member

01-16-2013

I actaully just posted this same solution in general discussion before realizing there was a better forum for it. I'm new to the forums. Here's my post verbatim.


"Something that has been bothering me for a long while now is the way to avoid a terrible game before the game itself starts. It's way too easy for one single dirtbag to cause all sorts of problems in pregame, set up the team for a loss, then force someone else to dodge. This system is completely broken, but don't worry, I have the solution.


Dirtbag: im gonna play random
Dirtbag: i gave up on my rank
Nice guy: pls don't ((
Dirtbag: if you don't wanna lose, betterdodge

Situations like the one seen above are all too common. Unfortunately, there's NOTHING with the current system that we can do about it. This players didn't ask for any roles, and he wasn't even last pick, he just went into ranked que to upset other players, and it worked. I want so bad to call him out on the forums, but since I know that isn't allowed, I'll just post his info up on 4chan and let the /b/tards have their way with him. I digress.

All four of the other teammates in this situation AGREED with each other and offered the offender whichever role he wanted (an amazing thing to anyone who has spent much time in ranked ques) but there was nothing we could do, one of us was going to have to dodge to avoid the loss of elo, forcing us to wait 30 minutes out of game. Since this player doesn't have a dodge lock-out, however, he gets to go right back into que and force other players to dodge in other ranked matches. With the current system, a single summoner can enter que with no intention of playing a game, and he can easily get away with causing NUMEROUS other players a lot of grief. The current system requires that the game be played and completed before being able to "report" the offender. So many offenders go unpunished.

The new system is as follows.

-Every summoner has a "vote-kick" button next to their name upon entering champion select.
-If a player is causing a problem, the other team members can vote-kick that player.
-If you are vote-kicked, YOU are punished with the 30 minute lock out timer.
-To avoid abuse of the system, it should be made that 3 of the 5 summoners must agree to kick the same person. Since you can only que with 1 other person in ranked, you and your ranked partner cannot vote kick someone alone.
-To further avoid abuse of the system, in the event that your team is "out-picked" and to avoid the game you simply agree to vote kick any random member of your team, the system could be made that if a split vote occurs, as in 3 people vote for 1 summoner but the other 2 both vote for the same "different" summoner, the game is disband and no one is punished with a lock out timer.
The system could use some fine tuning of course, but this is the basis for dealing with the problem. Sure this system could be abused, but the current system is being abused way further than this system allows for."


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Skorch4

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Junior Member

01-16-2013

What if its a situation where somebody claims "I just played with this guy and he was awful, we should kick him"

This would be the only way i could see this getting abused. My solution to this is, make getting kicked turned into a non stack-able 10 minute penalty.

If people get kicked they need to deserve it, and I think that it should actually be a steeper penalty than the one provided by you. I think that to increase incentive to be a team player and work well with others the troll should get a fully fledged leaver penalty and serve the same half hour, stacking penalty.
Now here is why the problem you described is a non-issue. Players who just had a game with a troll should (and do) ignore the user immediately after the game, if not during. Consequently they will never be put into a queue with that same player again, and this situation will never arise.


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Phythic

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01-16-2013

Similarly to what I mentioned in my post, why not increase the length of lockout time with the number of votes?

If 3 people vote to kick you, 5 minute lock out timer.
If all 4 people vote to kick you, 20 minute lock out timer.
If you are kicked more than twice in a 24 hour period, 1 hour lock out timer.
If you are kicked more than four times in a 48 hour period, the tribunal decides your fate.


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Yovalord

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Senior Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlyCat103 View Post

Well I can understand your point of view, and what your intentions are, I don't think it's a good solution. I'm going to go out on a limb here (forgive me) to say that - at your elo (diamond) this is probably a more black and white issue. But at lower elo's where the majority of players in ranked are - this can easily punish innocent players.
At 2k elo a player picking heimer with clarity, barrier when your team needs an adcarry - well that's a troll (my assumption - I don't play at that level).
But - at 1200 elo that might not be a troll. Unless otherwise suggested, that's probably just a player who just started ranked, only plays heimer, and is on there way to 600 elo. (I have experienced this numerous times in the 1200-1300 elo placement matches).

Your system means they probably would never get to play, they would constantly get kicked from games, and they don't deserve it. Your suggestion being implemented would make lower elo games worse.

While I understand the intention is to stop players from bullying their teammates in champ select (which happens at all elo's I'm sure) it is going to be abused at lower elo's, when players don't follow the meta (which isn't necessary to win games at that elo anyways) and kick players who have unconventional picks/non-"god tier" champs.
Im not going to go into the whole "report in pregame lobby" idea, because that is something completely different (and frankly not enough of a threat to stop trolls in my opinion).

But here is my stance on lower ELO players picking champions/builds that dont fit the meta. There is a big difference between bad players, and new players. You shouldn't be playing ranked if you want to "Try" a new build, and you shouldn't be playing ranked if you're a fresh 30 with little understanding of the games meta. Keep in mind playing a character against your whole teams wishes IS against the summoners code, trolling or not if they made it clear. It falls under the "Refusal to communicate with team" section of the summoners code. Riot has confirmed this.

Quoted from riot :http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...90763#20590763 "Being sent to the Tribunal has nothing to do with the champion you choose and everything to do with how you play/act in game.

If you're going to choose an unconventional build/role/champion then it's up to you to work with your team mates beforehand and convince them of your strategy.

However, if you refuse to discuss this with them, or they don't agree with it and want you to do something else; if you simply hard-lock a role or champ thinking you know better than them and suddenly find the ire of 4 team mates directed at you, then you shouldn't be too surprised when they report you to the Tribunal."


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Yovalord

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Senior Member

01-17-2013

[–]RiotVeigar[*******http://www.redditstatic.com/cake.png********] 29 points 13 hours ago
Yeah that's definitely up for revision if we feel like it's a serious problem. We've seen the other thread discussing this issue and are actively talking about it. The main reason we went with this route was that if there was no penalty for queue dodging during champ select, the optimal strategy would be to dodge repeatedly until your team happens to pick what you consider to be the most optimal comp for success. This wouldn't be fun for the player or the other people that are now getting repeatedly dumped back in the queue with each dodge.
If anyone has alternate solutions to propose for that problem, I'd love to hear them.

Quoted from Riot Viegar on the reddit AMA, get his attention!


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Boltbreak

Member

01-17-2013

I'd love to see this. There's almost always just one person that spoils champion select, which then prompts a horrible defeat.


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AlyCat103

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Quote:
m not going to go into the whole "report in pregame lobby" idea, because that is something completely different (and frankly not enough of a threat to stop trolls in my opinion).
(Having the option to report players for pregame toxicity wouldn't fix everything, no question. It would be as effective as the tribunal with in game toxicity. It would provide a level of accountability to how players behave in champ select that currently isn't there.)

------------------------------------------------

Quote:
But here is my stance on lower ELO players picking champions/builds that dont fit the meta. There is a big difference between bad players, and new players. You shouldn't be playing ranked if you want to "Try" a new build, and you shouldn't be playing ranked if you're a fresh 30 with little understanding of the games meta. Keep in mind playing a character against your whole teams wishes IS against the summoners code, trolling or not if they made it clear. It falls under the "Refusal to communicate with team" section of the summoners code. Riot has confirmed this.....
I think your misinterpreting things a little. Which many players who read WookieCookies quote did also, which is why Wookie followed up with this:

Quote:
I'm not really surprised to see the post mis-interpreted, so I'd be happy to help clarify for any one that is still confused.

The core answer is: You won't get suspended for choosing a champion you want to play. But context is everything.

Ranked games are considered more serious by the players that enjoy them. If you choose to partake in them then you are held to a higher level of accountability then if you were to join a Normal game. Since LoL is a team based game you'll need to work with your team and consider their decisions when you choose to join a Ranked game. This doesn't mean you don't get to play what you want. But it does mean you won't be able to get away with insta-locking something like jungle Tristana against the wishes of your 4 team mates. When a lobby starts, discuss with your team who should be what. If you feel really strongly for a particular champion be sure to explain why you think they'd be a great pick. But always be prepared to compromise in ranked for the benefit of your team. That is the essence of "Support Your Team".

If you want to goof around and try a risky or experimental build then you are free to join a Normals game. There is a lot less pressure in Normals game and there is not the expectation that each game must have a valid team comp like there is in Ranked.

Assuming you're not purposely trying to troll your team and be a jerk then you'll have no reason to end up in the Tribunal. (And yes, as someone who reviews cases frequently I can tell when a player is being a game ruining troll on purpose)
In the example, if your playing jungle trist - that's not the only jungler you know how to play. If your team wants you to play a different jugnler, I'm sure you have a "baby's first jungler" in your champ pool that you learned to jungle with. It's not beyong the scope of your skill, and knowledge to play a different jugnler. You're probably doing so to "goof around" or "troll".

In one of my placement matches my team needed a ad carry. our last pick picked voli bear. My team said "voli bot? pick an ad carry." Voli said, "yah, I bot" "I only know Voli or gp"
He communicated. He wasn't "being a jerk" or "goofying around" (and seeing how he played voli, I am sooooo glad he didn't pick ad carry, or we certainly would have lost the game.) :P
This wasn't uncommon on my trip from 1200-1350ish. I have numerous games with no carries, no junglers, and so did the other team. No one did so because they were being a jerk, or a smart ass. Playing something more desirable (for the team) was beyond the scope of what they were capable of. (Of the 5 games I played where my team didn't follow the meta, we only lost one. Every one of the games, I went in thinking "gg" and my team stomped.) When life gives you lemons, make lemonade

You ever seen a player get **** from their teammates for picking tristana, janna, vanye, or mid nidale? I have. Those are perfectly find champs to play. I have had games where my team follows the meta, and because someone wasn't playing an "elementz tier 1 champ" teammates were convinced we were going to lose, and that someone was "trolling." This happens. It's ridiculous.

These are the "innocent" players that are going to get vote kicked. Don't get me wrong - I completely agree, that the last pick jerks that say "mid or I feed" then pick a mid when there already is one and say "duo mid" (or troll) are a problem. (and they drive me bat-**** crazy)
But do I think that means that players that pick less popular champs, or "trash tier" champs, or play a significantly lower elo deserve to get kicked from champ select? I don't. I don't think it's a good solution. Maybe there's a better way? Maybe some modifications can be made to consider this? I'm not sure.
(I'm not even going to touch the huge amount of players that LOLKing teammates in champ select and could see a bad lose streak or performance and convince teammates, for the good of their elo, to kick players based on that)

(I'm not proud to admit this - but if a teammate in champ select made a good case for kicking a player, not based on that player trolling, with my elo on the line, I would be tempted to do the wrong thing.
I consider myself a very understanding, courteous, supportive, and friendly player - for players that take this game much more serious in terms of elo (and winning) than I do - I would imagine this would be a no-brainer vote kick for them).
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as for your comments to fresh lv 30's and little understanding of the game/meta - bad players have just as much of a place in ranked as anyone else. That's why we have elo. Eventually they find there place at 600 or whatever the case may be and play with other players just like them. For there to be 700 elo players there has to be 600 elo players for 700 elo players to beat. For their to be 800 elo players their has to 700 elo players to beat etc etc etc. As much as it sucks that they have to go through placement matches with legit 1200 elo players, they are an essential part of the elo ladder.
In terms of tanking others elo in placement matches -the same can be said about any player in placement matches that are well outside of the 1200 elo range. They're going to cost games for players one way or another whether they're winning them, or losing them for their team.

Relative to you (for example) I am an inexperienced player, with relatively little understanding of the meta. I follow it, because I blindly think it's the best way to win (and I have some thoughts as to why I think it works, and is the way it is) but you know better than I do why it works, and how to beat teams that don't follow it (thus making it superior and why players at high elo follow it). It's quite possible I'm wrong, I just haven't played against any team that doesn't follow the meta to test and see if it doesn't work at my level.(and I just really like playing support:P ) So I shouldn't be playing ranked games? Because compared to you, I'm inexperienced, and not knowledgeable.
Skill, knowledge, and experience with the game is all relative.

(this topic in general about players skill and playing ranked is a whole different issue, with a lot of varying opinions, so I think it's best to leave it at that, and probably not further complicate things.)

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tl dr

For your system to work (vote kicking) - there needs to be a way to protect players from from getting kicked from games when they are not trolling in champ select. You would have to find a way to protect players from getting kicked for playing less popular/non-fotm champs, players with less than positive lolking history's, and those who are unskilled, and as a result don't have to capability or knowledge to follow the meta.


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Yovalord

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Senior Member

01-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlyCat103 View Post

For your system to work (vote kicking) - there needs to be a way to protect players from from getting kicked from games when they are not trolling in champ select. You would have to find a way to protect players from getting kicked for playing less popular/non-fotm champs, players with less than positive lolking history's, and those who are unskilled, and as a result don't have to capability or knowledge to follow the meta.
(just to clarify i read the whole thing, don't want to re-paste it all though)

I think you misinterpreted what i said. Bad players and new players are a different thing. I have no issue with bad players playing ranked games. Somebody said that "new players coming in picking AD hiemer because they don't know better might end up getting kicked!", so my response was the "new player that doesn't know better" should not be playing ranked >.<

And also, with what wookiecookie said, i didnt misinterpret, if your team tells you NOT to play AD voli bottom lane and you do it anyway, you can and will be reported deservingly if you lose. If you can convince your team however that you playing volibear bottom is a viable thing (maybe you are playing a kill lane) and they agree to it. Then no, you shouldn't be reported/kicked. Obviously if you are getting kicked you didn't convince your team well enough. I don't really think ranked is the place to do things outside of the meta, but if your teams cool with it, then more power to them.

Playing urgot (considered trash tier), is a lot different than playing Volibear bot. Urgot is still a ranged ADC, volibear does not fill that much needed role. You still win games like that in the pre 1400 elo games, because players down there cant always adapt to change, but it doesn't take to much to learn to counter that with a traditional ADC + support.

All this being said though, i didn't really think of how it would impact the much lower ELO bracket (0 - 800 elo) where things are mass chaos as is. I don't have any experiance in that bracket so i couldnt tell you, but i dont think you are going to convince the crowd to kick innocent people for no good reason even down there.


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Yovalord

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Senior Member

01-19-2013

bump