Last Whisper is Worthless

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Autocthon

Senior Member

01-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeGothitelle View Post
That might be the highest DPS build but you need some survivability (GA, rarely QSS or BV) over one of those items.

The point was that you basically showed that for your 5th offensive item, a second PD gives more DPS than a Last whisper against anyone with 200 armour or less.
Obviously a last whisper is a bit cheaper but, does that make it more worthwhile? Especially since your bruiser is probably sporting a Black cleaver meaning their effective armour is already lowered.

Like, I always buy LW as my 4th or 5th item, but if it's the case that a second PD is basically always going to give you more DPS except maybe against a full tank, I might have to reconsider that.
(oh and you bring up how AS steroids reduce the effectiveness of PD, which also means that AS debuffs from the opposing team increase PD's effectiveness, which should be on most teams with frozen heart)
Actually AS debuffs don't increase the relative effectiveness of PD. Because AS debuff multiply your total AS, whereas AS buffs increase your AS based on your base AS. That actually means that FHeart and other AS reductions REDUCE the effectiveness of PD.

Additionally, due to the nature of Shred and Penetration the stacks of Black Cleaver only amplify the effectiveness of last whisper. Hence why BC+LW is so popular at the moment.

If you have flat APen from any source the DPS contribution of LW goes up. If you have AS from any source the DPS contribution from LW goes up.


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Ghyrt

Member

01-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Autocthon View Post
If you have AS from any other sources you shouldn't. Like boots. If you have better base AS you shouldn't, like basically any carry but Ashe.

...

Why would you spend 25% more on an item to get at most 10% more DPS? It's much more effective to get the Last Whisper,

...
Preferring PD is also a bad idea if the enemy has Thornmail.


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67chrome

Senior Member

01-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by NotSoSuperMan View Post
Have you not just shown that I should always buy another phantom dancer over the last whisper?
He's only shown that it terms of sitting still and auto-attacking, Last Whisper will be a better purchase if you utilize any ability with an AD ratio - considering armor penetration and AD increase the damage output you get there, and attack speed and critical strike chance don't.

If you're someone like Vayne who has nothing but a utility skill as your AD scaller, than you pick up another AS item.


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Autocthon

Senior Member

01-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by 67chrome View Post
He's only shown that it terms of sitting still and auto-attacking, Last Whisper will be a better purchase if you utilize any ability with an AD ratio - considering armor penetration and AD increase the damage output you get there, and attack speed and critical strike chance don't.

If you're someone like Vayne who has nothing but a utility skill as your AD scaller, than you pick up another AS item.
Gold efficiency for DPS increase.

30% more gold for 10% more damage baseline isn't very effective. Plus all of that comes from sitting and shooting, which means it's bad in any situation where the enemy isn't standing still.

Unless you're Vayne or Kog you want LW over a second PD. Of course that has little to do with not having an AD scaling damage source, and more to do with having powerful AS scaling sources.

If you're not Vayne Kog? You want last whisper. And if you're not building a defense item (possible on certain carries) you want last whisper in your sixth slot period.


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kavinh the third

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Senior Member

01-14-2013

well it's a cheap increase in damage plus with the new scaling with percentage being applied first it makes combining it with black cleaver pretty deadly


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SLayerOfNOOB

Senior Member

01-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Autocthon View Post
If you have AS from any other sources you shouldn't. Like boots. If you have better base AS you shouldn't, like basically any carry but Ashe.

The highest DPS build in game is

Greaves
Infinty Edge
Bloodthirster
Phantom Dancer
Phantom Dancer
Last Whisper

The highest returns for investment in the game come from Last Whisper once you've finished IE+BT+PD come from last whisper.

Why would you spend 25% more on an item to get at most 10% more DPS? It's much more effective to get the Last Whisper,

Edit: With the inclusion of boots the carry above would have the following DPS values

Armor100
Base: 363
BT: 503
PD: 556
LW: 504

Armor200
Base: 242
BT: 335
PD: 371
LW: 361

With berserker's greaves LW costs 25% less than Phantom Dancer and gives 10% less damage at the ow end, while only a 3% damage loss at the higher end. For 30% less than a bloodthirster you get equivalent damage. Last Whisper is the most efficient DPS increasing item in game for most carries. And this is assuming you don;t have any steroids. AS steroids will depress PD, while AD steroids will have less of a relative effect at depressing LW.
You forgot to add.. LW will help abilities that do physical damage do more damage. But PD wont unless those abilities can crit (attack speed wasted).

ALSO - PD does more damage over a long period of time vs a stationary target. But in most actual game situations a LW is more reliable as it buffs individual attacks rather than relying on the attack speed to help you hit multiple times.


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Gimme Penta

Junior Member

01-15-2013

10% out of the 33% is 30% more damage than without it. Just saying that is a huge increase.


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