Last Whisper is Worthless

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Ablogqwer

Member

01-13-2013

Last whisper works out to 44 damage and 10% overall damage increase (most commonly, with some minor variation).

If you want more raw damage, get a bloodthirster. If you want better multipliers, get a phantom dancer, especially considering the fact masteries and infinity edge will grant you a higher "multiple".

Some Proofs;
200 -> 130 armor
33% -> 43% (Damage Reduced To)

150 -> 97.5 armor
40% -> 51% (Damage Reduced To)

100 -> 65
50% -> 60% (Damage Reduced To)

50 -> 32.5
66% -> 75% (Damage Reduced To)


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

01-13-2013

Opponent has 300 Armor

You have 100 AD before items

Bloodthirster fully stacked is going to deal 50 per hit and heal you for 9 per hit.
Last Whisper is going to deal 51 damage per hit.

You've got more than 700 gold left over. Sure, you don't have Lifesteal, but now you can buy a different Lifesteal item instead of having to get Bloodthirster to deal the same amount of damage.


Anyway, Last Whisper is a 3rd or 4th item. If your opponent has too much Armor, it's fantastic.


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Ablogqwer

Member

01-13-2013

300 -> 195 armor
25% -> 33%

Sorry, it gets even worse at higher and lower armors. You are mistaken. A second bloodthirster is still better.

Or alternatively, a phantom dancer, for the massive multiplier as I mentioned.

I should however clarify what I mean in my original post. The last whisper is useless for any champion that relies on auto-attacks, but is highly effective for those champions that rely on AD abilities and/or already have a high level of armor pen for various reasons (olaf, darius, talon, etc).

Since armor penetration is applied second, this means that any armor penetration you have gets a full 35% boost to their effectiveness.

This requires you to stack armor penetration quite a bit.


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Autocthon

Senior Member

01-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ablogqwer View Post
Last whisper works out to 44 damage and 10% overall damage increase (most commonly, with some minor variation).

If you want more raw damage, get a bloodthirster. If you want better multipliers, get a phantom dancer, especially considering the fact masteries and infinity edge will grant you a higher "multiple".

Some Proofs;
200 -> 130 armor
33% -> 43% (Damage Reduced To)
You just increased your damage dealt by 30%.

Quote:
150 -> 97.5 armor
40% -> 51% (Damage Reduced To)
This is 25%

Quote:
100 -> 65
50% -> 60% (Damage Reduced To)
20%

Quote:
50 -> 32.5
66% -> 75% (Damage Reduced To)
14%

Last whisper at the lowest values you've shown is a 14% increase in damage, before accounting for the 40 AD. Your math is bad. You lack understanding of how powerful penetration actually is.

Come back when you can do math.


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

01-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ablogqwer View Post
300 -> 195 armor
25% -> 33%

Sorry, it gets even worse at higher and lower armors. You are mistaken. A second bloodthirster is still better.

Or alternatively, a phantom dancer, for the massive multiplier as I mentioned.

I should however clarify what I mean in my original post. The last whisper is useless for any champion that relies on auto-attacks, but is highly effective for those champions that rely on AD abilities and/or already have a high level of armor pen for various reasons (olaf, darius, talon, etc).

Since armor penetration is applied second, this means that any armor penetration you have gets a full 35% boost to their effectiveness.

This requires you to stack armor penetration quite a bit.
You're not doing your math right. The reduction value=/=the DPS increase.


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67chrome

Senior Member

01-13-2013

The important thing to remember when calculating the benefit of armor penetrations is you're DPS is effected by the opponents armor before you apply armor penetration as well - so a change from something like 33% -> 43% is 30%, not 10%. Because you were dealing 33% damage before.


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Autocthon

Senior Member

01-13-2013

Let us posit a hypothetical carry. This carry has the following stats at 18:

AD: 95
AS: 1.03 (Base = 0.658)

We will assume that the minimum Armor sported by enemies at 18 will be 100, a reasonable assumption.

With the following items the carry has the following stats

Bloodthirster
Infinity Edge
Phantom Dancer

AD: 265
AS: 1.35
Crit: 55%

And the following DPS against a target with 100 armor

DPS: 327

This carry will deal DPS as follows given an additional item.

Bloodthirster: 450
Phantom Dancer: 506
Last Whisper: 450

This shows tha tagainst the LOWEST POSSIBLE ARMOR AT 18 Last Whisper is as effective as Bloodthirster for increasing DPS. What happens when that target has 200 armor?

Base DPS: 218
Bloodthirster: 300
Phantom Dancer: 337
Last Whisper: 322

Yes by 200 armor Last Whisper is almost as effective as Phantom Dancer at increasing DPS, and is just over 7% more effective than bloodthirster. Care to make any other unfounded and poorly reasoned statements?


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NotSoSuperMan

Member

01-14-2013

Have you not just shown that I should always buy another phantom dancer over the last whisper?


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Autocthon

Senior Member

01-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by NotSoSuperMan View Post
Have you not just shown that I should always buy another phantom dancer over the last whisper?
If you have AS from any other sources you shouldn't. Like boots. If you have better base AS you shouldn't, like basically any carry but Ashe.

The highest DPS build in game is

Greaves
Infinty Edge
Bloodthirster
Phantom Dancer
Phantom Dancer
Last Whisper

The highest returns for investment in the game come from Last Whisper once you've finished IE+BT+PD come from last whisper.

Why would you spend 25% more on an item to get at most 10% more DPS? It's much more effective to get the Last Whisper,

Edit: With the inclusion of boots the carry above would have the following DPS values

Armor100
Base: 363
BT: 503
PD: 556
LW: 504

Armor200
Base: 242
BT: 335
PD: 371
LW: 361

With berserker's greaves LW costs 25% less than Phantom Dancer and gives 10% less damage at the ow end, while only a 3% damage loss at the higher end. For 30% less than a bloodthirster you get equivalent damage. Last Whisper is the most efficient DPS increasing item in game for most carries. And this is assuming you don;t have any steroids. AS steroids will depress PD, while AD steroids will have less of a relative effect at depressing LW.


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FreeGothitelle

Senior Member

01-14-2013

That might be the highest DPS build but you need some survivability (GA, rarely QSS or BV) over one of those items.

The point was that you basically showed that for your 5th offensive item, a second PD gives more DPS than a Last whisper against anyone with 200 armour or less.
Obviously a last whisper is a bit cheaper but, does that make it more worthwhile? Especially since your bruiser is probably sporting a Black cleaver meaning their effective armour is already lowered.

Like, I always buy LW as my 4th or 5th item, but if it's the case that a second PD is basically always going to give you more DPS except maybe against a full tank, I might have to reconsider that.
(oh and you bring up how AS steroids reduce the effectiveness of PD, which also means that AS debuffs from the opposing team increase PD's effectiveness, which should be on most teams with frozen heart)


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