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VPVD#1 - A new map

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ploki122

Senior Member

01-12-2013

[PSA] I added the next poll's candidates, feel free to chime in to anything I could've missed [PSA]
Poll should be up during weekend most probably.

Current Step : Map Archetype
So we've mostly established our features for during the game (there should be hazards and buffs), now it's time to define what kind of map we want... What kind of end-game do we want? As a reference, there exists only 2 types right now... A war of attrition (Dominion) and a I will smack you ass so good you can't respawn (TT/PG/SR). This step includes concepts such as King of the Hill or Capture the Flag.

Table of Content :
Post #1 :
- Current step.
- Table of content
- List of steps
- Change log
Post #2 :
- About me
- About VPVD
- About the new map
Post #3 :
- My thoughts about every ideas

Previous steps :
Step 1 : Brainstorm + Players
So what we have now is is that we want to create a new map... and that's pretty much it. So the first step is brainstorming. Please give your ideas (rough) about what the map should/shouldn't include, so that I can populate my VPVD#1 poll.
Step 2 : Features
Now is the time to make the map attractive. Now you may think we have no maps yet... and you're absolutely right! And that's the reason why we aren't making the map attractive... Basically, we need find things that would be nice to do in a match. That would basically includes things such as neutral objectives (Dragon, Ebonmaw, Baron, etc.), targeted objectives (TT's altars, SR's buffs, Storm Shield), it could also includes simple features such as Environmental Hazard or Minion Control (discussed in the brainstorming phase).
Step 3 : Map Archetype
So we've mostly established our features for during the game, now it's time for the end-game tweaks... What kind of end-game do we want? As a reference, there exists only 2 ends right now... A war of attrition (Dominion) and a I will smack you ass so good you can't respawn (TT/PG/SR). This step includes concepts such as King of the Hill or Capture the Flag.
Step 4.X : The Definition
Step 5 : The Map
Step 6 : Global Review
Step 7.X : Touchups
Step 8 : ???????
Step 9 : Closure and Review

Change Log :
10/02/2013 - Proceeded to step 3 after looking at early step 2 results.
01/20/2013 - Proceeded to step 2 after looking at early step 1 results.
01/17/2013 - Started Vote #1, added idea #4 Environmental Hazards
01/14/2013 - Added idea #2 KotH, and #3 Minion Control.
01/13/2013 - Created the topic, started step 1.


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ploki122

Senior Member

01-12-2013

About me :
Hello this is Ploki122, I've been on this subforum for about a year and an half, creating some champions, reviewing others, helping around a bit. I also took part in the council and left it a few months ago, but even though I left it, I plan on still helping around. My experience is roughly limited to 1.5 years of champcrafting on this forum, a little fantasy-crafting for Runescape and Battle for Wesnoth, and discussing with <deleted>, the Riot designer behind Vi, about design (although never mine nor his).

Otherwise, I'm a 20 years old Canadian, full-time studying in Computer Science at the Université de Sherbrooke, in Sherbrooke, Québec. Eventually I plan on working at Riot, either in design or technical QA, although QA is winning right now (but I would still most probably apply for both).

About VPVD :
First of all, what is VPVD? Pretty simple, it's Vox Populi, Vox Dei, a latin locution meaning the voice of the people [is] the voice of God. Why choose this title? because what i'll be doing here is start from an idea, give my impression, take your feedback/opinions, give my opinion impression on those, and like the poll that I used to create this topic, there will be a poll to know what path to take. So basically, while I'm the one who "owns" this thread, you guys are the one designing, while I'll be reviewing each and every ideas based of my experience in design, and my logic/feelings. As you could see, I added #1. I'll start this with 2 VPVD threads, and will probably re-poll later to create more.

Why create a thread such as this one? Well, first of all, I've got experience and knowledge that some apparently don't. I found this by reviewing certain threads and seeing how even though my opinion wasn't always shared, with a high frequency, the op usually ended up going my way (some times after a couple iterations, but meh, they're the one who lost time :P). So this is a way for me to pass such knowledge onto you all. Nothing forms knowledge as well and trial and error, and there will be a majority of errors in this thread.

About a new map :

So what we have now is is that we want to create a new map... and that's pretty much it. So the first step is brainstorming. Please give your ideas (rough) about what the map should/shouldn't include, so that I can populate my VPVD#1 poll.

So, let's begin this, what is required in a new map you say? Well, for once, novelty. You don't want 2 similar maps. In that sense, Summoner's Rift (the main map) has 5v5 face-smashing action. They chose to make a variation of it where there are fewer champions on a smaller map and they ended up creating Twisted Treeline (also sometimes known as Shadow Isles). They wanted a new kind of gameplay for their next map, since a 7v7 or 8v8 map would be unfun and hard on the computers, so they created dominion, a map about possession of certain zones and starvation. Lastly, a game mode started becoming popular among a few rioters (none of which were designers), and during the latest Thunderdome (a "festivity" where everyone does as they please) they chose to create an ARAM (All Random, All Mid) map based on the tutorial.. It yielded us the Proving Ground, a map perfect for duels and ARAM (but who really duels anyone...)

Why do you need something really new? Well, I'll have to use Xypherous' words here. Basically, if the only thing you have is a rework of a current map, but with similar setups, means and ends, it will only split the players. Basically, there will be 1 map that will be easier to balance on, and thus more liked and it will be more played, but the 5% remaining is on the one is a 5% that isn't contributing towards reducing queue times among other things. So basically, a good map will be played by every players sometimes, and it will attract new players to it. Let's take Dominion for example... Sure a lot of players hate it, but it's only because it's misunderstood... they approached it like SR, and it didn't work. You have to understand that map's meta and setup/mean/end to be able to enjoy it, otherwise, it's just a fun time-to-time map... So basically most SR-devoted players will scarcely play that map, and would SR disappear, they would too; and most CS-devoted players will scarcely play SR, and would disappear from LoL should that map be removed. Long story short, a map is different if you can't build a guide that works for that map as well as another one.



So what are the current map right now?
Summoner's Rift (SR) :
Setup : 5v5, with neutral jungle/buffs/objectives,, enemy has towers defending his base.
Means : Face bashing... you gain money by killing and farming.
End : Kill the enemy's base.
Twisted Treeline (TT) :
Setup : 3v3, with neutral jungle/objectives, enemy has towers defending his base.
Means : Face bashing... you gain money by killing and farming. You can gain buff by capturing strategic points.
End : Kill the enemy's base.
Crystal Scar (CS) :
Setup : 5v5, with pickups that help you survive/attack, neutral capture points, shield buff in the middle.
Means : Capturing most points, then starving the opponent. Capture mid buff for increased threat.
End : Enemy is starved out.
Proving Ground (PG) :
Setup : One lane, lot of ambient gold, towers protecting base, no external disturbances.
Means : Real face bashing... you gain money by killing and farming the few minions.
End : Kill the enemy's base.


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ploki122

Senior Member

01-12-2013

My thoughts about current step's ideas :
1. 3-teamed map :
First of all, is this novelty for the sake of novelty (aka a bad idea, like a jungle-less SR, or a rework of TT)? Clearly not. Adding a 3rd team will add a LOT of different strategies and strong points. Now is that idea easy to pull off? Clearly not. First of all, like I said in most 3-teamed maps threads, the biggest problem with having 3T maps is the 3rd team... If you add a 3rd team, attacking becomes counter-productive.

Let's say you are 4v4v4. Now the map is a triangle, each vertex representing a base. Now if Team A attacks Team B on their B's ground, it means that Team C can, at any times, choose to backdoor A, or backstab either team in the fight to sweep a couple of kills (and then push either teams), or simply farm it off, as recklessly as possible, since anyone that chooses to bail out from the fight will lose it. So if A team wins a sweeping victory, they must now act according to C, and either push (if C chose to farm and got hurt so much it's not a nuisance or that they are attacking the opposite side of the B base), or defend (if C chose to attack their team). If A team win, but not by a wide margin, they are forced to go back, because if they push, C can kill them, and/or their base, and if they go back, C can still probably kill them since they're in mint condition. If B wins, then B has a small chance of being able to defend given the fact they're already at home and couldn't really have been the target of a backdoor. So in most fights, A, the initiator, will lose quite a lot, B, the initiated, will lose, and C, the tourist, will gain a lot.

What can be made to replace that? give incentives to be aggressive, or rather, give incentives to not play passive. The first method is to change the Victory condition to something more Dominion-like. If the goal is to control zones, and that it is impossible to get a statu quo, clashes will ensue, a lot. Another one would be to have a way to defend with little to no one at your own base. If you could limit the number of attackers, protect some buildings, reduce another team's power against your base, wall off your base, etc. Then there is more incentive to attack, since you can't get backdoored by a 3rd team. Have less ambient gold, less farm available, and more gold from kills; basically if they can't rely on farming, they will try to kill.

2. King of the Hill :
This is based on Nysta's KotH map (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2972983). Basically, I don't think this could work as a map because of the huge burden of knowledge it bears. First of all, the map is composed of 3 rings, the inner one (basically a disk), is the hill, or the goal of the game. The middle one, the minion ring, is where all 3 based are located. Each bases release minions at both sides of it. The minion clashes in the middle of the arc, and travel to mid. The outer rim is the jungle rim. There is 3 major team objectives (kind of dragons) and 6 minor camps (wolves/others). The goal of the game is to hold the hill for 7 minutes total.


1st BoK : Unclear Optimization
Since the goal is to hold the hill for a total of 7 minutes, the time you end up spending in the jungle is a time that you waste and freely give to the enemy... So you should only jungle if you are certain you can't kill the enemy right now. But if you can't kill the enemy right now, it's impossible to farm enough to be able to kill him twice without recalling (since you can't really recall or the 3rd team gets the hill... so you just trade a 2nd place for a 3rd). So basically, while I said it is needed for a 3-teamed map to have an incentive to attack, this map has only that (basically, if you aren't attacking you are doing it wrong, but it could happen that you can hardly/cannot kill the enemy, and then you have the choice between losing time fighting them or losing time jungling. The time lost jungling is even bigger given the fact that the jungle is in the outer rim instead of the middle one.

2nd BoK : Monsters Attacks
Last time I checked, there could be neutral monsters attacks on the hill. To create this, I can see 3 possibilities. First, the easiest, scheduled ones. Every X minutes, or every X minutes you hold the hill, or every X minutes the hill is possessed by players, or... Monsters Attacks! This add a medium burden of knowledge, since if monsters are strong enough to actually hold the hill and/or trouble the middle, then it will require the knowledge to know exactly when they are coming to play accordingly. You'll want to fight alongside them if possible (so you could do a sloppy fight and run away 15s before the wave, heal up, and rush mid right after the wave when the holding player is low). The 2nd possibility, a bit harder is random waves and/or timers. However, such an unreliable method is plain bad. That's one of the main reason TT got changed... Then, there's the hardest method, an AI. They would basically evaluate your strength as well as their, you could probably raid the jungle beforehand to make sure they don't attack... but remember point #1? Jungling is losing time? and point#2.1? The one with the knowledge is the one to win... Well... in this case you'd be better leaving the jungle alive, let it rush mid, and attack right after, meanwhile you continue to farm the holding team's minion for a meager salary...

There was also another couple of problems like what happens if 3 teams are on the middle when minions are cleared, a couple of stronger/weaker champions, and little things like that. But such problems are only minor balances/design issues and aren't included in a map's real problems imo.

3. Minion control :
This was actually something I threw out there and someone said it was a good idea, so let's see what could and couldn't work with Minion control. What do I mean by minion control? I mean any way that you could influence what minions do, or how. So I'll discuss about choosing the waves' content, choosing the minions' pathing, being able to directly control minions as well as being able to upgrade minions.

First problem I see right here is having a choice... Afaik, there is only 1 other team choice that can be made in this game, and it's a surrender vote... and you probably all know how hectic and frustrating it can be... Now, your entire game is based on such choices. The best workaround I found was to simply have every players have the choice to give their option or vote for someone else's. This way, a duo queue can't solo troll it, however, a triple can. It is possible to ask for a 75% majority like for surrender, but in that case we need a default option (will be defined in each cases).

3.1. Waves Content
So first option would be to choose the content of each waves (per lane). What this would enable is to be able to counter champions such as Malzahar or Twisted Fate who can insta-farm casters like it's no prob by putting only melee minions and tank minions. You could also choose to drop the tank minion and a melee to trade it for 3 more casters, making it easier to zone. The mechanism could be either the wave has a COST and it spawns every COST seconds, or simply that you have a max resource and you use them for minions. What are the pro? more strategy/depth. What are the cons? Terrihuge burden of knowledge, prone to trolling. What are the biggest traps (the real goal of this thread)? First of all, what happens if you choose to send no creep? The enemy can't farm, and his wealth decreases, so they have to auto-gain that lost wealth... but then you're much better to just find the combination that allows you to have the least auto-gain for them... Auto-gain with a reduction? Then you must have as little as possible on low level plays, and as much as possible on high level plays, since they don't miss the cs as often. So this is the reason that I would personally discard this option... the abuse cases are so numerous and well... abusive, that the amount of work and constraints would make it not worth it. Default option would be something like current waves.

3.2. Direct control of minions
This is the second worst idea... In short, they removed the denying mechanic (killing your own creep tower to reduce the benefit the enemy team gets) because they thought it was more about mechanical skills than actual gaming. It's pure hand-eye coordination, whereas other things include tactic, awareness, fast thinking, experience, etc. Adding a micro management on minions is roughly applying the deny mechanism with 3 times as many minions in lane. You don't need to be good anymore, you just have to have nice csing skills, since the guy who can cs right, can overwhelm anyone. In the same way, the guy with the best micromanagement (most probably an RTS player) would rape his lane while being 3-4 levels under.

3.3. Upgrade minions
To be able to upgrade minion stats to your liking seems really nice at first sight. You can raise caster minions' attack and melee/siege minions' health and armor to make some incredibly pushing lanes, or just boost the MR of all minions to make sure that TF/Malz/Cass/Lux/etc can't roam. There are 2 main problems with that, the first one is buying such upgrades, since you know... someone has to. And that someone probably already is buying wards, and auras, and is dieing for the team, and is far behind, because she had to roam mid to help him because the jungler was busy doing something else, and she chose to itemize for the ezreal to get him a penta instead of picking that warmog to survive... so yeah, you see where I'm going with this. The second problem is that when talking about stats like that, there will most probably be an optimal choice, or an optimal relation, and at that point, it becomes a math war more than a strategic war and such math struggles aren't really wanted. I've seen a thread in forum games once that was "All minions now use 1 items"; Of course they aren't balanced, but the abuse cases are way too frequent... Imagine sunfire on all minions, or abyssal scepter, or guardian angel, or ohmwrecker, or thornmail...

3.4. Modify minion pathing
First of all, this would require some twisted technology as a backbone, but let's ignore this. The basic of this is to chose where your minions will go, but that may lead to major abuse cases such as making the minions path through their jungle so that it is easier to follow the enemy movements (and dodge the first tower, so it's harder to cs). On top of that , making the minions through jungle would completely ruin jungling. Another abuse case would be spawning 1-2 wave of minions through very long paths, and then 1-2 through optimal ones, which would make no minion appear half of the time, and 2 waves at once the other times. Once again, it becomes a math battle (delaying your minions by .5s will make farming safer while still not losing more minions to tower, removing the minions for 1 wave at every recall will auto-push their side).

3.4b. Choosing minion paths
As a modification of #3.4, the idea I find the best would be to have a number of predefined paths, with a pillar representing each of them, and all players have 1 focusing crystal (a fancy way of saying token). So each champion can use his crystal on a pillar, storing it inside and spawning a minion wave on that path. So basically ,your team can choose to have all minions go both while you are readying for baron, or choose to have minions split 1-1-3 with your best zoner in the 3 lane (such as if there is a lane swap, add more minion in that lane). This would allow you to define you strategies with the minions but since the controls are at the base and every champions only control his own crystal, then it requires everyone to go back once in a while. Of course, you need a default option (either round-robin with all lanes, a random lane, evenly split, etc.) so that when crystal isn't in any pillar you can default to it (or the previous value, but you'd still require the default value).

4. Environmental hazards
Environmental hazards are a bit trickier, much like the KotH map' invasions... Basically, either it's unreliable because it happens at random, or it's player-made, but not all hazards are accessible by every champions (like fire on a gas pit), and/or it contains a big amount of burden of knowledge, to know when/how/what happens where... If this has even a slight chance of coming true, I think it will periodic with a very short period (less than 6 seconds, possibly multiple times per seconds), and it'll be minor effects. Also, the environment has to be pretty intuitive... You are walking in a volcanic ecosystem, you get hurt, you understand that terrain can hurt you, and that lava does. The understanding is even easier if there are particles (video effects) and sounds to accompany that. What I mean by minor effects : A small stacking armor or MR shred, DoT, a mini-stun ever 5-6s, vision obstruction/wall spawning, etc.


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Nysta

Senior Member

01-13-2013

Have a look at my idea of a 3 team map (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2972983). More comments on the General Forums version, if you're interested. And well, just get some inspiration from it^^


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ploki122

Senior Member

01-13-2013

Had a quick look at it, and it is basically a XvXvX Dominion, which is basically the easiest way to creat ea 3-teamed map imo. However, there are still a couple of things that could be troublesome with how you designed it :

1. No incentive to not attack : You effectively cannot attack a team's base, meaning that the only 2 paths are farm or attack... However, there is little to no way to farm (3 buffs, that won't be up most of the time, and 6 camps). So basically, if R team has the hill, and a buff is up, the closest between B and G will take it, or they will take 1 each, before pushing the B/R and G/R lane to reach the hill. Once Red is dead/gone, they kill each others for possession of the hill, red revives, attacks it, either dies, then the one who didn't get the hill revives, kills the king, and the only thing that happens is multiple teams endlessly attacking each others. So it's more of a 1v2, with the 1 team not always being the same, than a 1v1v1.

2. "Intelligent" monsters : You say that monsters will sometimes attack the middle. But for that 2 options are possible, either they are random events, or scheduled ones. In the first case, the game will get ditched quick, because the map itself is unreliable (see old TT). In the later case, the burden of knowledge will be extremely high, since there will basically be better times to attack mid or not. So while SR has Objective timers, which can enhance one's play by a bit, KotH would have invasion timers, which would be required to be any successful... The best way to do it would probably be something like have monsters spawn in a camp every Xs, and once it's full, it invades. But then it only means there is a neutral lane clashing against mid on top of the 2 others, since it's much easier to invade mid with a huge wave attacking than with +150g.

3. Balance : Right now, with the map as it is, give me one reason to not use Alistar, Warwick, Karma, Graves/Ezreal/Corki/MF for your team... you need a reliable sustain (AoE sustain on karma OP), you need a reliable monster killer (here nunu could sub WW, fidd or udyr too), a tank with sustain/monster killing, and damage. if it's 3v3v3, drop the ADC. Depending on the hill size, you might also want to replace the ADC for a high-damage bruiser (read as Darius).

Really quickly, that's what I can find off the top of my head. I kinda like the overall idea otherwise and it's similar to the idea I gave at the end of my 3rd post...


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Nysta

Senior Member

01-13-2013

Quote:
Hmm, no that wouldn't help. If anything would help it would be minions spawning from the hill once a team runs up the hill. Not on their side, but on the other sides. I don't know, but I think it would be fun anyways, we just have to get a great idea on how to prevent aggression being punished. I mean, I got some already, but they will probably not be enough. Even though I guess making minions spawn on the other sides of the map when one Champion tries to capture the hill might be a pretty good idea to prevent sitting around. Maybe the towers should be facing a direction and only be able to shoot that direction.. and you should be able to determine that direction somehow. No clue about that yet though. Or yes.. you could wall the other ways off once the first team entered the way up, for, say 20 seconds and up to every 60 seconds.

That's my last comment on the General forums. And yes, there is problems, but it's not that bad. Also there is 3-4 players on each team, I wasn't sure about how many ppl to put on a team. Every role will still have its strengths, sure some will be stronger, mainly those with extremely high pushing power (Sivir, Shyvana).
It's king of the hill, why would you want to attack the enemies base? I think making enemy bases attack-able would be one of the biggest problems.


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ploki122

Senior Member

01-13-2013

I never said it was "that bad", I said it was flawed...

And I know that attacking their base isn't necessarily a good thing, but the fact is that, imo (you have to remember this part), if the only logical choice is to attack, the game will be boring... With the current rules, if you ever turn around to farm, you're shooting yourself in the foot since they will continue racking up time on their timer, meaning that they will get closer and closer to winning. So it's a map of go big or go home.

Also, I don't see an assassin being used on that map, ever, unless there is a tweak made (like a global aura or something favoring them)


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Nysta

Senior Member

01-13-2013

I don't quite get the part of you not seeing there being a possibility for assassins being played.. Even stealth champs, if that's what you mean, can get you a significant advantage because you can then tell what the enemy is up to and counteract.. w/e, I'm not commenting here to talk about my concept, I was just trying to give you some more basis to work with. No-one else has commented yet though, which is pretty sad.

Also, you will be he one to make those minion events happen, so I don't see how there's no farming or such, there even is jungling. You will have to farm to be strong enough to capture and (possibly) hold the hill!


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ploki122

Senior Member

01-13-2013

Well, I chose to discuss your idea for now since there is nobody else :P. (and that this thread is pretty much discussing the community's ideas)

The reason I can't see an assassin being useful is take Talon for example... He would go in, totally destroy, one of the enemy... and run away, try to survive on the hill poking with rake a bit against the 4-7 remaining enemies...

As for farming, it's not exactly that you cannot farm, it's that you mustn't farm. Let's take SR for our basis... a jungle clear with buffs takes about 1.5-2 minutes for the jungler. Since this time you are 3-4, let's say we can drop it down to 45-60s (there is still at least 1 dragon to kill). Given respawn timers of 20s, and some added movement/being stalled time, you can easily get up to 90-120s per life before attempting to steal the hill. And you won't be much richer... you will probably gain an overall 1.5k for your team, meaning that everyone has an armor cloth over the enemy. However, for that you must recall, and take the time to heal yourself which brings the time even closer to 2 mins. So you take the hill, a sweeping victory, you fight with the 3rd team since they saw you farmed and waited until you got weakened before initiating. You survive the assault and have now ~30% hp. So even if the old team that held the hill is, let's say, 5k behind. They still are full health, and out of that 5k, there is like 2-3k that you couldn't use because you received it capturing the hill.

And if you manage to make farming worth the while, then it'll only become an additional burden of knowledge. The biggest goal is : "capture the hill, and hold it" and the map is composed of 3 rings, the hill ring, the minion ring and the jungle ring. So to farm the jungle you have to go farther away from the middle. It really is counter-intuitive, and would requires some guys to do the math and tell the community it's actually worth it.


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Void22

Senior Member

01-13-2013

I wholeheartedly support the idea but, unfortunately, I lack the creativity to create a map. I will give feedback if I can but aside from that I can't do much except for give you my support. Also, if it isn't to much trouble, could you quickly take a look at my champion and tell me what you think? I would really appreciate it. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2827962&highlight=cambio