Capture points, The Quest system, and Garrison.

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naotasan

Senior Member

01-12-2013

Hello everyone! In this topic I would like to have a constructive discussion about capture points, the quest system, Garrison, and how we can improve on these.
I also really want to talk about the point system, but that is an entirely new subject that demands a new thread - so that will be my next one (unless Nome beats me to it).

Sorry, no tl;dr versions.


Capture Points:
Capture points are working fine (except for a small bug). The range of neutral towers invisibility detection is fine, the time it takes to capture a tower is fine, the damage output from a tower is fine.
There is barely anything wrong with capture points right now. I'll list two things I have noticed during gameplay that are wrong.

  • Any kind of lag can mess up the GUI on the top of the screen. I don't know how many times I have panicked in recent games thinking we had 1 point and they had 2 because one of the points was always neutral on the GUI on the top of the screen, but looking at it normally shows that it was owned.
    This bug is minor and is probably already on the "fix-it" list already.
  • If timed right, you do not have to wait to channel on capture points and can start immediately draining or gaining health from capture points. What am I talking about? Okay, let's make this simple. You know when you go up to capture a point, your champion does some Dragon Ball Z move, throws his hands up at the tower, and then starts channeling? Did you notice that it takes a few seconds to start up?
    Capturing towers seems to be working as intended if only one person is capturing the tower. Here's where the bug comes into play.
    You are capturing (hurting or gaining health) on a tower. An ally of yours is running to the tower to help capture it. You notice an enemy champion that is going to force you to stop capturing.
    By this time the health of the tower is almost half gone (or half full). If your ally starts to capture the point the very instant you get interrupted or interrupt yourself, the ally does not need to DBZ his way to charge the tower. The player still does the animation to begin the channel, but health from the tower will be drained during that time.
    It doesn't sound like much, but it can literally win or lose you a game when the game is under 100 points on each team.

I haven't been able to think up much else about capture points. I believe these are the only two issues that effect me immediately.

Phourc brings up a good point about a current problem with capture points that effects a large amount of people:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phourc View Post
How about the common complaint that clicking a champion *near* a tower makes you capture over attacking that champion? Or at least, my usual mid-combat click-spam almost guarantees a channel.

It gives diving a tower an extra layer of difficulty when you have to factor in the self-stun for the minimum channel time that will happen against anyone who kites you around the tower long enough.
The Quest System:
We all know the quest system that gives your team a boost in damage and hurts the nexus health.
The problem is that it's too linear, boring, and simple. Everything about the quest is predictable and the intended purpose of the quest is rarely ever realized.
The intended purpose of a quest is supposed to shift the way the game is going to a different part of the map because the quest is so valuable. Right now it's barely even noticed unless "I'm going to gank bot" and then you notice that the quest is actually down there by the time you get there.

In my mind, the quest system needs major improvements to be even worth it. There are three ideas I have come up with. These ideas are about the mechanics of how the quest system works.
  • First Idea:
    No change to the quest system, but increase the reward from the quest.
    This sounds like a good idea, and it is a lazy fix. The problem is that then the quest would probably be too over powered, but it would achieve its intended purpose.
  • Second Idea:
    Leave the buff/rewards the same, but add complex algorithms to change the location of the quests. It's so boring and predictable to know exactly when and where a quest is going to be. They are always right next to each other.
    This fix would take the most time, but would be the best overall/long-term fix (imo).
    Depending on the score of the game, positioning of players, and maybe even kda ratios, we could decide new and exciting quest locations.
    For example. If the enemy team has 4 top and 1 bottom, make the quest both mids and ignore windmill. This will encourage backdooring and new gameplay. This is just one example by the way, I have many many more but I'd rather save that typing energy for when it actually matters (aka, if nome gets curious)
  • Third Idea:
    This idea is a copy of the second idea in terms of complex algorithms deciding where the quest goes. But instead of quests effecting both players, each team gets their own quest. Blue team and Purple team get their own offensive goals which act independently of the teams, but each point is also a defending point once it becomes an offensive point.
    Basically the same quest system we have now except the quest points act indepentantly from one another and give separate buffs.
    A cool idea that could work here is if you defend a point for long enough, you get a defensive bonus (like "Take -2% damage from enemy champions for 2 minutes").
    This makes sense if the "bug" I'm going to talk about isn't altered.
  • "Bug" that bugs me:
    This isn't a bug, but it is to me as it doesn't seem to make any sense.
    To me, capturing and owning both quest towers seems like how it should work. If the enemy neutralized a tower that was the other part of a quest right before (and even after until they capture the point) you capture the second point to complete the quest, you still complete the quest. You do not have to actively own both points to complete the quest. You have to own one point, and the other point has to have been previously owned by you and is neutral.
    This means you can complete a quest with owning only one tower. It seems broken to me, but Nome told me it's working as intended.
    If we "fixed" this "bug" I'm going to assume a lot more fun would come from quests. If this "bug" is not fixed, I say we go with my third idea and then make the quest points act independently from each other.


Garrison:
Garrison is a really nice skill when used in the right situations. Currently, it's far stronger defensively than offensively.
Let's compare both uses shall we?
  • Defensive Garrison: Stops all enemy champions from channeling the tower, restores health of the tower, (optional through masteries) adds splash damage to tower shots.
  • Offensive Garrison: Reduces damage from tower by 80% for 8 seconds.

This means that the best time to use an offensive garrison is when they use a defensive garrison.
Rarely ever do I see it when people tower dive even if they have it. Sometimes it happens, but it feels like the offensive garrison is not strong enough.
My one idea that I had (hard to imagine only one, hah) is that if you take the mastery point for Garrison, it should slow or stop any health regeneration from a defensive garrison.
It's not the best idea, but it's something to help change the balance of power.

This thread is open to constructive criticism, feedback, and other ideas that you may have.
Please feel free to point out my good ideas, my faults, and my stupidity.
Also, if you want to contribue to this post, I will try my best to include your ideas.


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Chaosos

Senior Member

01-12-2013

Just a note: Defensive Garrison no longer increases tower attack speed.

Anyways, the Quest system does need to be changed up. It's pretty innefectual, and is more just rewarding for winning at that point in time rather than changing the strategy of the game


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naotasan

Senior Member

01-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaosos View Post
Anyways, the Quest system does need to be changed up. It's pretty innefectual, and is more just rewarding for winning at that point in time rather than changing the strategy of the game
It's intended purpose was to change the flow of the game and give objectives, not just something you happen to get because that's the point you are pushing.
Right now the quest system is almost completely ignored and disregarded.


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Fabs457

Senior Member

01-12-2013

I agree on all points. The defensive garrison AS-boost/decrease hasn't been working for a long time, at least since last summer/fall. THe tooltip was changed to fit the description though

The quest system to me just seems random and doesn't affect gameplay at all. Its like a convenience bonus for a tower thats already being taken. It would be neat if there were multiple types of tower quests that offer different bonuses based on color or something


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Phourc

Senior Member

01-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by naotasan View Post
Capture Points:
Capture points are working fine (except for a small bug). The range of neutral towers invisibility detection is fine, the time it takes to capture a tower is fine, the damage output from a tower is fine.
There is barely anything wrong with capture points right now. I'll list two things I have noticed during gameplay that are wrong.
How about the common complaint that clicking a champion *near* a tower makes you capture over attacking that champion? Or at least, my usual mid-combat click-spam almost guarantees a channel.

It gives diving a tower an extra layer of difficulty when you have to factor in the self-stun for the minimum channel time that will happen against anyone who kites you around the tower long enough.


As for quests, I 100% agree with the need to control both.

Quick Quest Fix: Control both towers to win (forces defense), windmill/mid quests should be changed to mid/mid (windmill changes hands too frequently to be a good objective), Quests give money (250g) in addition to current rewards. Greed should make them compelling enough to complete.

Larger Quest Fix: - Control both towers to win.
- Quests are now two randomly selected points, one chosen from each team's controlled points. The first team to control both completes the quest.
- Incentives are increased. I think gold would still be the best way to go.
- Timer warns of incoming quests, ~15 second warning should be about right. If the upcoming quest points change hands before that time, new points are chosen and the warning re-starts. This allows players to strategize instead of just blundering into quests.


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naotasan

Senior Member

01-13-2013

I love your idea about the tower capture point taking priority over champions.
I'll take a closer look when I wake up tomorrow x_x


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Bma

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Senior Member

01-13-2013

The problem with quests is that it only really serves as a comeback mechanic for the losing team (and frankly, dominion already has too many from a balance standpoint).

There's never a reason why a quest should target the windmill if it isn't for the sole purpose of aiding the losing team, which unfortunately, it is.


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naotasan

Senior Member

01-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bma View Post
The problem with quests is that it only really serves as a comeback mechanic for the losing team (and frankly, dominion already has too many from a balance standpoint).
True, there are a lot of "come back" mechanics, but they're more of a problem in the respawn timers right now than the quest system.
SR has a lot less comeback mechanics than Dominion, but the quest system is similar to Baron if you want to compare them for comeback mechanics.
Both teams can get the "buff & reward" from the kill/capture.
Of course, it's not nearly on the same level as Dominion, but it has its comparable points.

Quote:
There's never a reason why a quest should target the windmill if it isn't for the sole purpose of aiding the losing team, which unfortunately, it is.
That's why I am suggesting changes and fixes to the system and the algorithms in place. If nome wants my ideas, I will be more than happy to tell him.


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naotasan

Senior Member

01-23-2013

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