How are permanent bans and allowing players to re-roll not contradictory?

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Vansin

Member

01-11-2013

Permanent ban seems to mean "We don't want you playing our game ever". However, when you talk to support, they encourage you to make another account and have a good attitude. It seems contradictory. I mean, if you don't think people can reform, don't just perma-ban them, IP ban them and block their paypal account.

That's me. I have played this game since beta, and my original account got a permanent ban shortly after tribunal started. After the usual emails to support, I was encouraged to make another account and have a good attitude.

That's what I did. Over a year later, my original account is still permanently banned. Why? Back when I was banned, the tribunal was very different (no report cards) and took much less time to get the permanent ban (I didn't even know permanent bans existed).

TLDR; Make bans a year and give people another chance. I mean, you have done it before (look at your own forums for proof or reds removing permanent bans as "experiments"). Nothing about the tribunal is fair.

For what it's worth, I never spend a single penny on this game anymore, at the chance my second account gets banned. I gave you my few hundred already, not going to fool me twice. I also don't see any improvement in the community.


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Palladine

Senior Member

01-11-2013

I think the main issue with making a perma-ban actually permanent is that it is technically difficult to match the player to the computer.

IP bans don't work because most ISPs use DHCP, automatically assigned IP addresses that are often reassigned to other people. MAC-address based bans are problematic because MAC addresses on network cards can often be changed/spoofed by software.

More involved methods, such as a hash generated from the computer's hardware profile, can't separate the player from the computer. These would likely cause problems in cyber cafes too, especially in other regions where those are popular, since the first player to catch a ban on a cyber cafe computer would prevent anyone from playing League of Legends on that computer.


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Vansin

Member

01-11-2013

I think you are missing the point though. Riot doesn't want to permanently ban players, just accounts. Talk to support, they encourage "toxic players" to make another account and play again.

I don't know how Riot has turned something that could be positive (punishing trolling/leaving behavior) and turned it into "ban people that say things we don't like".


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YoshioPeePee

Senior Member

01-11-2013

its not practical on a technical level to keep people from making a new account. IP bans won't work for a variety of reasons

the experiment known as the "level 20 challenge" was discontinued due to a very high percentage of the players who participated not changing their behavior at all, proving that giving out second chances will only create toxic games for more people 90% of the time. Riot said they will not do this again.

if you get permanently banned you will never get your account back and won't be refunded for anything you spent on it. You can make a new account and start over, but only because riot cannot stop you from doing this. Player support knows they can't and thus, being practical people, candidly suggested that one of your options was to make a new account and not be a jerk this time. Another option would be playing a different game. What isn't an option is getting a permabanned account back.

Riot is very consistent with this

edit: thanks Palladine for giving some very good reasons why riot cannot stop banned players from making new accounts, there is also the issue of many longtime internet users with trollish tendencies making use of proxies to avoid being attached to a single ip address


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Vansin

Member

01-11-2013

That isn't true. I read a thread last week about someone getting another "last chance experiment" from Pendragon or something. I went and searched for the thread, but it must have been deleted. That's too bad. Riot is not very consistent with it.

However, even if they were, it's ridiculous, and negative. I've been playing this game a long time, and I see no improvement in the community. Have you? I still get people who want to ruin games. I still get feeders who go afk if you give them any advice at all. The community hasn't gotten better or worse in my opinion. How about yours?

Regardless, I think permanently banning an account turns something positive (reforming the community) into negative. It's saying "You can never change your behavior, but by all means, feel free to make another account". Why say that at all? Keep in mind, I am talking about before report cards, back when Riot wouldn't be clear on what will/ will not get you banned. I got banned for things I said over chat that can be found across every online computer game ever. Not saying that makes it okay, but banning me from playing the account for life? Seems harsh. This was back when Riot basically said "oh trust us, you deserved it, but we can't discuss any details with you".

I thought this was a place for me to leave such feedback.


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LittleDi

Senior Member

01-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansin View Post
I think you are missing the point though. Riot doesn't want to permanently ban players, just accounts. Talk to support, they encourage "toxic players" to make another account and play again.
I remember Lyte stating that he's getting the support staff to stop telling permanently banned players to make new accounts. I just don't remember where he posted it.


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YoshioPeePee

Senior Member

01-11-2013

i'm sure riot would like it if they could give people 2nd chances but the figure on the level 20 challenge was something like 97% of the people who took it failed utterly

when a permabanned player is given a 2nd chance and doesn't changed he creates a negative experience for alot of other people. Yeah its harsh that there are some people out there who would reform if they were given a second chance and not being given that chance. (the failure rate was not 100% and I do know someone who took the level 20 challenge, passed it, and got their account back) but riot had to face reality on this and can't roll the dice on a 3% chance of the player appealing to them being reformed

since you asked, in my personal experience the community has improved quite alot since the introduction of the tribunal and especially since the introduction of the honor system. A few days ago I had multiple games in a row where our team all failed horribly and we had to surrender at 20. Solo que. No one raged at anyone, no one got reported. This would be unheard of 2 years ago.


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Exploding Barrel

Senior Member

01-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansin View Post
Permanent ban seems to mean "We don't want you playing our game ever". However, when you talk to support, they encourage you to make another account and have a good attitude. It seems contradictory. I mean, if you don't think people can reform, don't just perma-ban them, IP ban them and block their paypal account.
According to Lyte player support isn't supposed to do that. Support is a big, partially outsourced team though and there seem to be some misunderstandings on that. Riot should work on getting their training/messaging on that kind of thing clearer.

IP bans don't work because it isn't the 1990's.


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Vansin

Member

01-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by YoshioPeePee View Post
i'm sure riot would like it if they could give people 2nd chances but the figure on the level 20 challenge was something like 97% of the people who took it failed utterly

when a permabanned player is given a 2nd chance and doesn't changed he creates a negative experience for alot of other people. Yeah its harsh that there are some people out there who would reform if they were given a second chance and not being given that chance. (the failure rate was not 100% and I do know someone who took the level 20 challenge, passed it, and got their account back) but riot had to face reality on this and can't roll the dice on a 3% chance of the player appealing to them being reformed

since you asked, in my personal experience the community has improved quite alot since the introduction of the tribunal and especially since the introduction of the honor system. A few days ago I had multiple games in a row where our team all failed horribly and we had to surrender at 20. Solo que. No one raged at anyone, no one got reported. This would be unheard of 2 years ago.

I literally just got out of two games where it was the absolute opposite. We were winning and people couldnt stop yelling and trolling each other.

I guess it's luck of the draw.

I also understand why the level 20 challenge didn't work. It should be more like "Make a new account, level it to 30, and in a year we will talk".

Honestly, a year ago I was a bit more immature than I am now, and it wasn't clear back then that simple smack talk would result in a ban. Since then, my vnew account has been totally clean (which is amazing because a lot of innocent people at least get some sort of warning through tribunal). Sometimes I get the urge to support riot by buying a skin, but then I remember that my account could get banned and the future and I pass. Their loss.

The level 20 challenge was a joke, and it totally screwed over people that actually wanted to reform, and gives the community a good feeling when people like me say they reformed. You guys just retort with "97% blah blah blah". I don't think the system is reliable, just, or even internally consistent with its purpose.


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YoshioPeePee

Senior Member

01-11-2013

just because the community improved does not mean it is perfect yet, there is still alot of luck of the draw involved, but as someone who has played the game before tribunal and honor were added i can confidently say the the overall attitude of players has gotten alot better

i don't think many "innocent" people get hit even with a warning at all by the way, it takes alot of reports from alot of different people to even reach the tribunal, and even then the vast majority of voters will vote pardon in any case where they don't see negative behavior from the person under review (and in some cases, as tribunal voters often complain, even if the person under review is being a bit of a jerk, they often still get pardoned) The debate comes from differences in opinion on what level of severity should warrant a punish vote, but i've never seen the tribunal reach a guilty verdict where absolutely 100% nothing negative came from the player in any of the games.

if you played a year without even getting warned than it does seem like you have reformed completely, congratulations. However it's riot's new policy to not give accounts back no matter what. Losing the time and money spent on an account forever is a pretty severe punishment and a strong deterrent to blowing off the summoner's code and the tribunal even if people can just make a new account and start over. It's pretty dang harsh but riot takes this kind of thing quite seriously since people complained very loudly for a very long time about negative behavior from the community before they implemented the tribunal, and people are still doing so.

riot does not want people to think there is a possibility of getting their old accounts back if it is permabanned for a number of reasons, that is why they can't give back accounts even to people like you


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