2 players taking mid point. When does it stop?

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Zeoroot

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Senior Member

01-11-2013

As weird as it seems, it sometimes works.

Once I played with a Taric and some other champion who went 2 bot, and when I asked him about it he said "We always do it like this, and we win."

We won indeed, it was fun to see.


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AlphaFerric

Senior Member

01-11-2013

There was this guy, Copernicus, who made this claim that was seen as stupid in his time. It was seen this way because everyone else absolutely knew what the universe was and how our little pocket of it operated. It took a long time for his theory's to be validated, and good people caught a lot of **** for even wondering if he was right.

If you see someone trying something different, don't automatically assume it is stupid because it is outside of the current known and norm. Ask what might work with what they are doing.

Ex. How can a 2 cap at mid be beneficial? Well now he has more gold and the point capped faster. Maybe if top is delayed long enough for 2 full health people to arrive there, ahead of one, and against 3 other who hopefully have taken some kind of poke damage, top will be easier, and if not, he has more gold to buy something on revive.

I'm not saying any of that is actually how it will work out (because I have 0 idea of your team comp, and who you sent top/mid), but the way you approached this situation can use some work.


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Sakuri Ono

Senior Member

01-11-2013

You know in 'theory' there is some credibility to multiple people taking Middle at game start.

The more people channeling on a point, the faster it captures. The faster it captures; the quicker you can devote all your resources to Windmill. However the problem lies in one extra person is not going to speed up the cap enough to justify delaying that unit's arrival up top.

Now maybe three or all four players channeling on mid could capture it quickly enough to create a 4v3 in your favor up top (interrupting the enemy before a full cap can be made). However I have neither tested that nor seen that tactic ever executed. I imagine it could potentially be successful if the top side players all built for mobility right out the gate and were highly proficient at teamfighting (utilizing skill to make up for the small statistical difference in Speed vs Damage/Survivability builds for that first round of combat).


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Malah

Senior Member

01-11-2013

@^: The problem is that strategy is that they just kill the one person left top and cap or send someone with CC (Alistar, Leona) to delay their arrival. It could work in theory if they didn't have a good response to poke and you could stall it, but minus a team comp that would result in a free win anyway I can't think of anyone who can simultaneously delay three people before level 6 simultaneously not get caught or just not die.

Minus cheese such as an all-in built designed for it, ofc, but then again people manage to fall for that stuff like a ghost/mobility/MS rammus managing to get the capture before anyone else gets there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyx87 View Post
I believe he was posting that because I was called out for not playing much Dominion. Which i have 3000+ games of...
Oh, sorry. That was literally one of the few pieces I didn't read out of this thread. Getting a habit with the recent derp thread rush to just read the first few posts, scan for anything interesting, and reply.

Usually better for my mental health than actually reading everything. The things I have seen. q_q

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyx87 View Post
Anyway, I really like That made me laugh, because it's pretty true.
Little bit that comes out of my Kassadin in a Game book about Taoism: skipping the complicated solution and going for the simple one means getting things done, even if you don't seem like it (Play support, farm assists and prevent captures. Play with team, win game instead of farming kills. Profit!).

I think my Elo has recently tanked or something because I'm seeing flashes. Fastest way to get Elo once out of the brain-dead level when you can just play Akali/Kat and ace teams alone is to play around the team (with some constructive leadership) and make what they're doing work, which works relatively well.


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AlphaFerric

Senior Member

01-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakuri Ono View Post
You know in 'theory' there is some credibility to multiple people taking Middle at game start.

The more people channeling on a point, the faster it captures. The faster it captures; the quicker you can devote all your resources to Windmill. However the problem lies in one extra person is not going to speed up the cap enough to justify delaying that unit's arrival up top.

Now maybe three or all four players channeling on mid could capture it quickly enough to create a 4v3 in your favor up top (interrupting the enemy before a full cap can be made). However I have neither tested that nor seen that tactic ever executed. I imagine it could potentially be successful if the top side players all built for mobility right out the gate and were highly proficient at teamfighting (utilizing skill to make up for the small statistical difference in Speed vs Damage/Survivability builds for that first round of combat).
See, this is the kind of stuff I want to see on these forums. Thank you.


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Happy Lulu

Senior Member

01-11-2013

Oh god I remember this one time where the team told an Udyr to go mid, so the Udyr literally went to the middle of the map and sat there and asked what to do.


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naotasan

Senior Member

01-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillcoldcoolaid View Post
oh god i remember this one time where the team told an udyr to go mid, so the udyr literally went to the middle of the map and sat there and asked what to do.
lol


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NamKim

Senior Member

01-12-2013

Personally, don't like the idea of having two players capping the middle point. You can argue that you cap it faster and everything, but sometimes that's not what you want. I can argue that in the lower elo where your teammates don't bring revive into the game, capping slower is actual a benefit.

With the Nexus HP-Revival timer the way it is now, even a point difference can affect the revive timer. Granted that I didn't exactly do an experiment with it but Sauron said it in his guide and I am just going to trust his word on it since he has shown in the past that he really does experiment and do the math to support the things he says.

At lower elo when your allies and enemies don't take revive, having a shorter revive time compared to your enemy is a pretty good benefit, especially if the windmill fight went less than perfect... If a majority brings revive into the game, then this doesn't apply as much. I will tell you that in a lot of my games, just because you captured the windmill doesn't mean you will be holding onto for long. In fact, I'm more worried when my team captures the Windmill than when we don't...

The meta exists because it is a good "cookie cutter" way to make good team compositions and strategies. But I will say that a team with superior coordination can make terribly crazy strategies work with great effect. I remember this one game when my team captured the windmill with no opposition. We were all initially confused, a lot of us recalled back expecting our bot to get a 4-man gank. Nope, the other team just let us get windmill and waited until a lot of us recalled back to take the windmill with little trouble. What you don't know can and will be used against you.

Something that is considered innovated now could very well be the meta of the future that we all think is obvious.

I love referencing Sauron's guide because I really do think it is the closest thing we have to "The eBook of Dominion."

Quote:
Dominion was introduced in October 2011, but it wasn't until January that the meta solidified when my team, Point Defense, was formed and began dominating the tournaments. With our victories we brought decidedly standard picks/bans, the real roles of some champions, and most notably the Revive meta. We were using Revive before it was cool, and if you hate seeing that spell everywhere you can blame MMKH and me almost entirely for it.

Point Defense removed targetted banning in tournaments and brought in standard bans. This is because we were a team of solo queuers that got together, and regularly played against each other and were always looking to outpick or outsmart. We were all self-analytical players so we identified the true OP champions a lot sooner than they normally would have been, and started using them in tournaments to force other teams to counter us. We would ban out specific counters to the OPs and eventually, we got these champions to become standard bans and first picks in the Dominion community. If you go back and look at the NESL tournaments from about #11 on (when we officially formed), you can see us running Urgot and tank Kassadin and Trinity/Atma's Yorick and bot lane Jax way earlier than anyone else was.

So basically, if there's anything you don't like about Dominion, you can probably blame Point Defense for it. Probably.
@FDru
Quote:
most notably the Revive meta. We were using Revive before it was cool, and if you hate seeing that spell everywhere you can blame MMKH and me almost entirely for it.


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Eloquid

Senior Member

01-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaFerric View Post
There was this guy, Copernicus, who made this claim that was seen as stupid in his time. It was seen this way because everyone else absolutely knew what the universe was and how our little pocket of it operated. It took a long time for his theory's to be validated, and good people caught a lot of **** for even wondering if he was right.

If you see someone trying something different, don't automatically assume it is stupid because it is outside of the current known and norm. Ask what might work with what they are doing.

Ex. How can a 2 cap at mid be beneficial? Well now he has more gold and the point capped faster. Maybe if top is delayed long enough for 2 full health people to arrive there, ahead of one, and against 3 other who hopefully have taken some kind of poke damage, top will be easier, and if not, he has more gold to buy something on revive.

I'm not saying any of that is actually how it will work out (because I have 0 idea of your team comp, and who you sent top/mid), but the way you approached this situation can use some work.
Hey I just lost 3 games in a row, accidentally in every one of them 2 ppl were taking mid or going bot. 1.st game: The person was laughing at me after pleading for only 1 mid, arguing there's no mid on dominion. Even after pinging on mid point and explaining it to him. Of course that one was helping Tarric to take mid. 2nd game: Karthus with Smite taking mid with partner. 3rd game: Caitlyn who asked while waiting in the base is she ap or ad champ. She went bot with other player.
I'm gonna take a break now and work on my approach a little and try to see those people as visionaries, not as complete noobs n' trolls who are comming to Dominion just to tryout new champs and practice their jungling skills.


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BuddhaRice

Senior Member

01-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eloquid View Post
taking mid with 2 or more ppl is completely retarded and amounts to nothing.
I beg to differ


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