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The directions of Thresh's E should be reversed

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CertainlyT

Champion Designer

01-12-2013

Quote:
Alenym Lardio:
My point is that his E is not supposed to be a difficulty of his kit. It's not supposed to be way harder to pull than push with this skill. It's obviously made to be a easy-to-land skill (no cast time, short but large...)

Riot wants that the complexity of the game to be about choices, not about useless difficulty. (I'm merely quoting something a Red said a long time ago on the forums, don't remember who and what exactly, but eh, just to say I'm not inventing that out of nowhere :3)
And yeah, I think that if you HAVE to aim a skillshot elsewhere than where you want it to go, then it's useless difficulty and not complexity...


This is a great discussion! A lot of my co-designers wanted me to reverse the ability. It was tempting to follow their advice, but after playing with both versions and thinking about kit synergies as a whole, it was a relatively easy decision to keep the mechanic as is.

My intent is that it is "harder" to pull than to push. This is not because I like "useless difficulty", but rather because I had to make a choice as to which mode would more difficult. The reason I kept the ability with the targeting the way it currently is is as follows:

*In an "oh shoot" moment, you want the most intuitive outcome to be one that is less likely to result in you dying and more likely to save your life. Freaking out and pressing E should not draw the enemy in; pulling in should be the more calculated choice.

*Thresh's E combos with his Q in two ways -- you can EQ to set up a Q pull with less chance for the enemy to dodge or you can QE to extend the effect of the pull. EQ needs to be executed very quickly (button press within 0.5 seconds of the other) and Q is narrower than E. QE actually requires that you delay the execution of the E (~1.5 second delay) and the enemy's position is locked as you have them Q stunned. So these combos dictated making the QE combo the one that required the most mouse movement.

*Players tend to, rightly, think of themselves as the locus of their abilities. Having the vector -- the direction -- in which the push occurs be the direction from Thresh to his cursor felt a lot more natural, though admittedly not perfectly natural. It was very, very difficult to execute the "cast behind to knock away" version of the spell with targeting reversed.


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MagnissimusPrime

Senior Member

01-12-2013

Quote:
CertainlyT:
This is a great discussion! A lot of my co-designers wanted me to reverse the ability. It was tempting to follow their advice, but after playing with both versions and thinking about kit synergies as a whole, it was a relatively easy decision to keep the mechanic as is..


Have you considered using the vector targeting controls for thresh's E so you click forward then sweep back to pull and click forward and sweep forward to push? i really think this method would be the most comfortable solution. otherwise smartcasting this skill is gonna be a nightmare.


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FinalBoss Wilson

Senior Member

01-12-2013

Sir, CertainlyT, the main reason I believe the push and pull should be swap is in usage cases. Thresh is about preventing the escape of enemies. In the event you want to escape your back will be to the enemy and it should push them away. If you are the agressor you will be going forward towards the enemny you don't want to escape, so you want it to pull them close. Its it indeed possible to do that with the current setup, it just raises Thresh's skill cap. Is that added difficulty needed? At what point would you be trying to knock away an enemny that you are being the agressor too. Being able to push and pull on an 8 way axis is nice in all but most of the time only 2 vectors are going to be used, imho.

Edit:
Also chaining the q into an e pull and slow is such a great feel. No escape! if you flub the pull by putting your cursorin the oppsite direction the person you're pulling its not so great. The 8 way axis for the push pull is clunky. The push/pull distance is so short that knocking them in anyother way is prettty niche usage case. IE: knocking them slight to the side into a trap as opposed to directly back.

I like this character's kit and feel but I don't know if I have to skill to play the character to its max as it is currently setup. Good work! =P


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Shentok

Senior Member

01-12-2013

On discussion of reticles for champions, why is Zed's W a dash shot instead of a circle? It makes it near impossible to properly use the ability and determine range.


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BadgerDrool

Senior Member

01-12-2013

Quote:
Avatarofdespair:
Thresh is about preventing the escape of enemies.


I feel Thresh is about controlling his enemies not preventing escape. Cursor = Push is more comfortable for sideways motions. Thresh's E isn't just a push or pull it's also a knock aside when it needs to be. Need an enemy bruiser to go <--- because your carry is on your right then you can do that. Then you hit them with The Box.

It only really gets confusing when the motion feels like a pull. When you want to use the tail end of Thresh's AoE. Mentally I find I split his sides in 180 degree arcs. I'd almost rather he had a circle instead of a rectangle.

I find this topic amusing. I remember wanting Caitlyn's E direction's reveresed because when you escape you click away from the enemy. I didn't want to have to click toward an opponent to escape them. I still find it odd but I got used to it. It's a good discussion to have.


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Ragequitternob

Recruiter

01-12-2013

Quote:
CertainlyT:
This is a great discussion! A lot of my co-designers wanted me to reverse the ability. It was tempting to follow their advice, but after playing with both versions and thinking about kit synergies as a whole, it was a relatively easy decision to keep the mechanic as is.

My intent is that it is "harder" to pull than to push. This is not because I like "useless difficulty", but rather because I had to make a choice as to which mode would more difficult. The reason I kept the ability with the targeting the way it currently is is as follows:

*In an "oh shoot" moment, you want the most intuitive outcome to be one that is less likely to result in you dying and more likely to save your life. Freaking out and pressing E should not draw the enemy in; pulling in should be the more calculated choice.

*Thresh's E combos with his Q in two ways -- you can EQ to set up a Q pull with less chance for the enemy to dodge or you can QE to extend the effect of the pull. EQ needs to be executed very quickly (button press within 0.5 seconds of the other) and Q is narrower than E. QE actually requires that you delay the execution of the E (~1.5 second delay) and the enemy's position is locked as you have them Q stunned. So these combos dictated making the QE combo the one that required the most mouse movement.

*Players tend to, rightly, think of themselves as the locus of their abilities. Having the vector -- the direction -- in which the push occurs be the direction from Thresh to his cursor felt a lot more natural, though admittedly not perfectly natural. It was very, very difficult to execute the "cast behind to knock away" version of the spell with targeting reversed.


One question their wouldn't that make E skills behind part useless cause first of all you rarely get backstab ( except maybe a few champion like shaco) so the back part would be mostly useless, and if your gank and you use your E skill the push or pull is too little to save you ?


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Alenym Lardio

Senior Member

01-12-2013

Quote:
CertainlyT:
This is a great discussion! A lot of my co-designers wanted me to reverse the ability. It was tempting to follow their advice, but after playing with both versions and thinking about kit synergies as a whole, it was a relatively easy decision to keep the mechanic as is.

My intent is that it is "harder" to pull than to push. This is not because I like "useless difficulty", but rather because I had to make a choice as to which mode would more difficult. The reason I kept the ability with the targeting the way it currently is is as follows:

*In an "oh shoot" moment, you want the most intuitive outcome to be one that is less likely to result in you dying and more likely to save your life. Freaking out and pressing E should not draw the enemy in; pulling in should be the more calculated choice.

*Thresh's E combos with his Q in two ways -- you can EQ to set up a Q pull with less chance for the enemy to dodge or you can QE to extend the effect of the pull. EQ needs to be executed very quickly (button press within 0.5 seconds of the other) and Q is narrower than E. QE actually requires that you delay the execution of the E (~1.5 second delay) and the enemy's position is locked as you have them Q stunned. So these combos dictated making the QE combo the one that required the most mouse movement.

*Players tend to, rightly, think of themselves as the locus of their abilities. Having the vector -- the direction -- in which the push occurs be the direction from Thresh to his cursor felt a lot more natural, though admittedly not perfectly natural. It was very, very difficult to execute the "cast behind to knock away" version of the spell with targeting reversed.


Oh yeah, if you have to choose between these two "modes", I agree the current one is better! But what about making it a vector skill, but making it so a quick click casts the spell as it is right now? Like Viktor's E for example: you can choose to make the laser go toward you, but if you just quickly click, it will go in a straight line in front of you.

Since the target is rooted during the Q-E combo (which is when it is sometimes a big fail to "Q in a way then quickly E the other way&quot you'd have the time to click the champ your just Q'ed (I assume your cursor is still somewhat close to him) and clicky make a "dragging toward you" gesture to pull it. The "line of effect" would be determinated by where your cursor was when you pressed E and the center of your own character, and it'd pull if you moved the cursor toward Thresh, and push if you did the opposite (or simply quickly clicked).

There'd be still an intuitive way to react to a "oh shoot" moment, but it would be easier to follow-up your grabs!

Pic attached, dunno if you saw my precedent post where I was suggesting it. ^^

Legend of the joined image:
The green losange is where you press E.
The red arrows are the possible cursor paths to have the blue resulting vector that will affect the creep that is circled in blue.


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BergMeister

Senior Member

01-12-2013

Here's a thought though CertainT. If you are running the direction of the pull would be now behind you because you would be clicking to escape. Therefore you would still have to flip it around to knock em back. therefore reversing it would be the logical choice no? I feel like its kinda backwards to what it should be right now


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Akuen

Senior Member

01-12-2013

Quote:
I feel like its kinda backwards to what it should be right now


In response to that (and this entire thread) I give you this:

Quote:
I remember wanting Caitlyn's E direction's reversed because when you escape you click away from the enemy. I didn't want to have to click toward an opponent to escape them. I still find it odd but I got used to it.


This skill is fine as it is. It doesn't need to be changed. I agree 100% with CertainlyT's decision.


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lm Krueger ml

Senior Member

01-12-2013

God it is so hard to work out what most people are trying to say in this thread >_<