Zug, the Juggernaut

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Adelrift

Junior Member

01-22-2013

I'm going out on a limb here and I'm gonna completely overhaul the skills he has. Remember though this is only a suggestion and you may not need to use it for your own purposes.

Q(by itself) - Wrecking Ball
Make it a "go-to" move. Remove all of its special properties (aside from the movement speed buff) and just make it a simple medium damage move. You can then use either Q again, W, or E to do extra moves with it. For example...

Q(after Wrecking Ball) - Zug Tug
Pulls oneself toward the ball, dealing damage to all enemies along the way.

W(after Wrecking Ball) - Anchor Pull
Pulls the ball back to Zug, dragging any enemies along the way.

W(by itself) - Rhino Skin
Make it a fixed timer move. maybe 7 seconds of the buff and 15 seconds total. Have it convert Attack Damage to armor maybe?

E(after Wrecking Ball) - Wild Swing
Spins the ball in a circle, doing damage to surrounding enemies. The ball will return to its initial position.

E(by itself) - Roar Of The Wild
Have his next basic attack deal an extra amount of magic damage. This does not buff you in any way so you cannot use it with Rhino Skin to gain extra armor or something.

R(after Wrecking Ball) - Zugement
A slower but longer and better range version of Garen's Judgement.

R(by itself) - Enraged Stampede
Keep it as it is.

This way, you can have your ball and chain be a really useful utility move, opening up a lot of possibilities. He still retains some form of his old skills, but I thought this would be a more cooler utility for him.


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ElementSteel

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Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelrift View Post
I'm going out on a limb here and I'm gonna completely overhaul the skills he has. Remember though this is only a suggestion and you may not need to use it for your own purposes.

Q(by itself) - Wrecking Ball
Make it a "go-to" move. Remove all of its special properties (aside from the movement speed buff) and just make it a simple medium damage move. You can then use either Q again, W, or E to do extra moves with it. For example...

Q(after Wrecking Ball) - Zug Tug
Pulls oneself toward the ball, dealing damage to all enemies along the way.

W(after Wrecking Ball) - Anchor Pull
Pulls the ball back to Zug, dragging any enemies along the way.

W(by itself) - Rhino Skin
Make it a fixed timer move. maybe 7 seconds of the buff and 15 seconds total. Have it convert Attack Damage to armor maybe?

E(after Wrecking Ball) - Wild Swing
Spins the ball in a circle, doing damage to surrounding enemies. The ball will return to its initial position.

E(by itself) - Roar Of The Wild
Have his next basic attack deal an extra amount of magic damage. This does not buff you in any way so you cannot use it with Rhino Skin to gain extra armor or something.

R(after Wrecking Ball) - Zugement
A slower but longer and better range version of Garen's Judgement.

R(by itself) - Enraged Stampede
Keep it as it is.

This way, you can have your ball and chain be a really useful utility move, opening up a lot of possibilities. He still retains some form of his old skills, but I thought this would be a more cooler utility for him.
While I appreciate input, you kinda just ripped apart my concept and replaced it with your own kit. That pretty much says to me, "Your concept sucks, let me show you how to do it." :|
You just completely redid my concept...


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Master Katulu

Member

01-27-2013

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=3045891

Quantum The Perfect Storm


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ElementSteel

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Senior Member

01-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Katulu View Post
Are...Are you serious? You come into MY champion concept and just post your own?
The hell is wrong with you?


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Dzanio

Senior Member

03-01-2013

Passive: Iíd call it a rage system (tryndamere/renekton), not a fury system (rengar). For the 50% fury and on Iíd look to rumble for balancing; when rumble hits 100% heat he loses the ability to cast spells, but gains significant damage on hit. Passively gaining much more damage on hit than rumble, plus a slow, with no detriment is probably overpowered. You donít need the at 75% rage portion of the ability; itís too powerful already. The 100% fury bonus is reasonable so long as it functions like renektonís passive (empowers next ability used), and not like rengars (resets cd on last ability used and empowers next ability).

Q: stun + knock up is a bit much for a ranged non ultimate ability. Iíd remove the cd reduction upon picking up the ball, or move it to the empowered version of the ability only. This ability is too strong; providing lots of cc, damage, and gap closing potential. The long cd needs to be there for balance since this is an everything in one ability.

W: The ability is interesting since it requires time to gain the full stat effect. To fully emphasize the importance of this ability youíll want to leave the base damage really low on all of his abilities (including passive), and then grant really high bonus AD scaling. Otherwise this is basically just free tank stats.

E: A static twirl wonít be very useful. Regardless, the armor shred and the radius of the effect are too large. Personally Iíd just make the empowered version of the ability allow you to move around for the duration of the effect.

R: Gored champion damage: so the MS damage is likely to be 400-500 base, with 20% ms boost per second for an unspecified number of seconds could be as much as 1000 bonus physical damage per enemy hit. That seems excessive. 100-200 extra damage is probably more reasonable, but you wonít be able to get this consistent via MS scaling. Similar issues with the base damage.


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ElementSteel

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Senior Member

03-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzanio View Post
Passive: Iíd call it a rage system (tryndamere/renekton), not a fury system (rengar). For the 50% fury and on Iíd look to rumble for balancing; when rumble hits 100% heat he loses the ability to cast spells, but gains significant damage on hit. Passively gaining much more damage on hit than rumble, plus a slow, with no detriment is probably overpowered. You donít need the at 75% rage portion of the ability; itís too powerful already. The 100% fury bonus is reasonable so long as it functions like renektonís passive (empowers next ability used), and not like rengars (resets cd on last ability used and empowers next ability).

Q: stun + knock up is a bit much for a ranged non ultimate ability. Iíd remove the cd reduction upon picking up the ball, or move it to the empowered version of the ability only. This ability is too strong; providing lots of cc, damage, and gap closing potential. The long cd needs to be there for balance since this is an everything in one ability.

W: The ability is interesting since it requires time to gain the full stat effect. To fully emphasize the importance of this ability youíll want to leave the base damage really low on all of his abilities (including passive), and then grant really high bonus AD scaling. Otherwise this is basically just free tank stats.

E: A static twirl wonít be very useful. Regardless, the armor shred and the radius of the effect are too large. Personally Iíd just make the empowered version of the ability allow you to move around for the duration of the effect.

R: Gored champion damage: so the MS damage is likely to be 400-500 base, with 20% ms boost per second for an unspecified number of seconds could be as much as 1000 bonus physical damage per enemy hit. That seems excessive. 100-200 extra damage is probably more reasonable, but you wonít be able to get this consistent via MS scaling. Similar issues with the base damage.
The rage system IS called Fury in LoL. Rengar's is called Ferocity. I'd be willing to reduce the damage of the 50% bonus, but not that slow. It's 15% at most. The damage and armor boost are there so that he has more of a presence once that level is reached. I want him and his actions to be felt.

You do realize that Wrecking Ball has 2 zones, right? The innermost ball zone is where the stun happens. Outside that, less damage and the knock up happen. The pick up stays so that he can be reliable with the cc. I could up the CD though so it's not on the same level as Alistar's Pulverize.

I'm not sure about Rhino Skin. I feel like it's fine where it is, and being able to leave the base damage alone.

I'll make it so he acts like Judgment and Cyclone with his fury bonus. Makes sense now that I think about it because there's already a crushing debuff on the passive.

Perhaps making it a one-time speed boost for the duration?


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Dzanio

Senior Member

03-14-2013

Quote:
The rage system IS called Fury in LoL. Rengar's is called Ferocity.
My bad, you're correct.
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I'd be willing to reduce the damage of the 50% bonus, but not that slow. It's 15% at most.
Lets look at a comparable passive. GP's grog soaked blad deals 3+lvl magic damage per stack (max 3 stacks) for at most 3 seconds, and applies a stacking 7% slow per hit. Since this is counted multiplicatively and not via addition it comes out to about 20%, your passive comes out to around 14.5%. Since his can be applied to a ranged ability it's stronger so that slighly mollifies the fact that your passive lasts a second longer (btw, highest slow duration atm is 3 seconds, which is more appropriate for your passive - see sej's if you don't believe me, all she gets from hers is a 10% on hit slow, which is obviously underpowered by itself (it synergizes with other aspects of her kit, but so does yours), but is nevertheless the existing basis for comparison). Lets look at the damage; gp's does 3+lvl stacking up to 3 times; in a typical poke trade he can get off a q and an auto attack or two over the course of 2 seconds before retreating. Lets assume 1 second at 1 stack of gsb, 1 at 2, and 3 at 3. For a lvl 1 trade this comes to a total of 48 bonus damage. By lvl 6 it's 66 damage, 12 96 damage, and 18 126 damage. This occurs over the course of 5 seconds, so it is at most (note: this is an underestimate since it’s easy to start the trade w/ an auto attack, and immediately q to start w/ 2 stacks of gsb) 25.2 dps. Note that since this damage occurs over a very long span of time it’s quality is less than yours, since it is partially mitigated by passive regen (by the time the enemy has a warmogs it actually isn’t getting through the regen). Further, GP usually builds AD, which means he won’t have any MR pen, so this damage will fall off considerably over the course of the game as scaling MR runes, and Runic Bulwark kick in/are purchased. Furthermore, it is unaffected by crit chance or attack speed. Lets look at your 50% fury passive. It grants 20 +3xlvl in damage PER AUTO ATTACK. This means that given only 2 attacks per trade early game you get 46 bonus damage lvl 1, 76 at lvl 6, 112 at lvl 12, 148 damage at lvl 18. Because with the purchase of a single item (sword of the divine), it is possible to double your attack speed and give you +100% crit chance for your next 3 attacks, it is reasonable to assume your AS will be at or above 2.0, and this damage will be doubled. In terms of DPS that means you get (assuming no I.E. or crit damage runes) a minimum of 296 extra DPS (burst) from your passive, and about half that in sustained dps (largely build determined); additionally you get a slow which is almost as effective as GP’s. Granted, this is for a poke case scenario, but frankly your dps doesn’t drop off a whole lot in an extended fight, and GP has to build up stacks every time someone dies in a team fight. Considering you have 2 other passive buffs, and fury is easy both to generate and retain (not to mention GP’s very mana reliant) this seems a ludicrous disparity.

Note: Riven's Runic Blade provides about 150 sustained dps (assuming 300ish AD), but requires continually casting her abilities to maintain, does not provide any cc, and requires building pure glass cannon, whereas you can build pure tank.

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The damage and armor boost are there so that he has more of a presence once that level is reached. I want him and his actions to be felt.
TL: DR- too much presence on top of what is already too much damage. Believe me, people would be feeling his passive.
Now on top of that at 75% Fury you gain 1% of what I hope is meant to be either current health, or missing health as BOTH AD, and Armor. As it is you’re talking max health, but I’ll analyze it from both perspectives. Assume warmogs w/ no other health items (again an underestimate since you’ll build bc etc) you have 2250 base hp at 18, and 1000 from the item, for 3250 total (ignoring runes/masteries; honestly in game this will be closer to 4500), which translates to 32.5 AD and armor. Yi’s Wuju Style, at max ranks gives 35 AD passively. When activated it gives him 70 for ten seconds, but he loses the passive for 17 seconds. So you gain passively the same AD he does, but also gain 7.5-24% damage mitigation assuming typical AD bruiser build (7.5% assuming base armor is 200 after pen is applied, 24% assuming 0 armor after pen). In a straight on brawl Yi’s wuju style means his auto attacks will hurt more than yours, but conider; none of his other abilities scale off AD. All is damage is from auto attacks; meanwhile your q/w/e gain between .5 and .6 scaling from this effect, so when abilities are taken into account a single segment of your passive gives more damage than the active from another champ, and grants significant DR at the same time, and this is from an underestimate, and this is from an underestimate. I’m glad you took the flat pen off the e, or this would be even more overpowered by itself.
As stated previously I find no fault with the 100% fury effect; it’s perfectly reasonable so long as the enhanced effects are kept reasonable.
Now I realize you love your creation, but the numbers are crazy overpowered. Either fury needs to rapidly decay out of combat, or there needs to be a fairly obvious way for people to reduce your rage bar, or rage needs to be much harder to generate, or the numbers need a huge nerf, or some mixed approach at balancing.
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You do realize that Wrecking Ball has 2 zones, right? The innermost ball zone is where the stun happens.
Yes, comments were made with this in mind. It’s too much cc and too much damage. Also it’s easy to land skill shots against slowed targets so it has a lot of synergy w/ your kit which makes it even stronger. I don’t necessarily find fault with the separate zones, it’s just that the ability gives too much kill potential to someone who can selectively land the zone they want to on someone (i.e. stuns are ineffective vs targets w/cleanse abilities or tenacity, and knockups can’t be countered by anything). My comment was a warning that the ability was borderline overpowered on its own (and is considering the state of the rest of the kit), but that assuming a balanced kit and average player (pros really don’t count for much in the scheme of things) it would be balanced if the cd reduction were situational (i.e. something you had to make a sacrifice for).
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Outside that, less damage and the knock up happen. The pick up stays so that he can be reliable with the cc. I could up the CD though so it's not on the same level as Alistar's Pulverize.
That would be a good start, but I still feel the cd reduction needs to be for the empowered version only. This is a phenomenally powerful ability. I’m only silver elo and I’d be able to land this easily enough to make it completely overpowered. A plat or higher elo player (this is still a considerable portion of the community) would be able to carry any game with the q alone.Your ability description is the same as I thought it worked. I’d reduce the stun duration to 1 second (taric’s e has a base cd of 16, is single target, and stuns for 1.5 secs). I’d make the knock up duration 0.5 seconds (enough to break a channel, but not enough cc by itself to be overpowering). I like the idea of a leash radius on the q; didn't see that last time, going to have to think about the size; 700 should be about the size of a Zyra ult. Oh, come to think of it this is completely dependent upon how long the ball persists after being thrown; if it's just a few seconds than it seems ok~ reasonable as is, but this ability would pretty much force him to jungle since he could screw himself over too much during ganks top lane. What I'd probably do if this were my ability is make the base cd reduction on the ball 2-3 seconds if picked up (so people will be tempted to go after it; might increase the base cd to offset this), and make it so that if you move a certain distance away from the ball the ball would disappear and you'd lose the MS boost. Then the empowered version of the spell grants significant cd reduction if it's picked up (8-10ish seconds assuming you increase the base cd a little), and continues to provide the MS boost for a short duration after the ball is regained (say 2 seconds, and the buff decays over the duration). Rage damage scaling on this is a bit excessive since it doesn't consume rage to deal the damage. Would be better balanced if it did (Deals % of x damage dependent upon rank per % fury consumed).

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I'm not sure about Rhino Skin. I feel like it's fine where it is, and being able to leave the base damage alone.
I’m not entirely certain either simply because it’s a rarely used mechanic (only similar one I can think of is Graves’s passive). Here’s my point: all of your scaling is off of total AD, this means that you don’t really need items or even these ability bonuses to do a ton of damage early game. Conversely it means building damage is unrewarding because you have high base damage, but close to no scaling (so living longer increases your damage dealt more than building damage does). The best way to deal with this is to change the damage scaling from total ad to bonus AD. It forces people to utilize the extra damage from the toggle/your passive rather than just building tank, and remaining permanently in the defensive stance for the awesome buff. Since the base values on the toggle are very high at full value it is rewarding to stay in that state. Currently people have no incentive to switch back and forth. This means that they always get the full base value, which is excessively high. Either the ability needs to not be a toggle and simply grant bonus stats w/ some sort of active i.e. Fiora/Yi, or the ability can stay as is, but you need to change your kit so that people have to think and plan in order to optimize their damage output and survivability. The best way to do this is to keep base damage low, but provide excellent bonus AD scaling for your abilities (on the order of 1:1, or slightly higher). Also, this ability is really meant to make your champion either be a tank or a glass cannon; this is a neat concept because Riot has only managed that with champs like Shyvana who have multiple forms. Your 75% passive grants more defense and damage than these ult forms by itself, and largely detracts from this toggle, since they can just choose which stat they want permanently, and then rely on the passive to compensate for not switching.
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I'll make it so he acts like Judgment and Cyclone with his fury bonus. Makes sense now that I think about it because there's already a crushing debuff on the passive.
Yeah, it looks pretty good now. I’d make the speed percentage flat at all levels since it’s tied more to your passive than the ability itself.
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Perhaps making it a one-time speed boost for the duration?
Ah… Not sure what portion of my comment you’re specifically referring to here. I assume the ult, but in what context?

General Impression: Passive is overpowered, see end of that section for details: rest of the kit (I'll wait until you reply about the ult to comment on it) needs a few tweaks to encourage both fun and higher level gameplay but is generally sound.

EDIT: Some of your abilities are channeled/durational; I don't think that they should help generate fury for the duration of empowered versions of the spell, since that would lead to chaining abilities into themselves, or worse making it so that empowering spells doesn't impact negatively the maximum efficacy of your passive/q.